Chicago 2009 looks solid....

[RJ Productions]

Infomatek... good points!

The problem I have seen here lately is we have people quite new to this forum (and quite possibly new to haunting) that only see things from their own limited point of view. Now don't get me wrong, we all came from such a view point and hopefully as they gain insight and knowledge so will the attitude of their posts change. Did anyone notice how every VENDOR member that posted backed up your point of view???

Too many people forget about or do nothing but complain about the vendors. Vendors PAY for all of us to be able to attend TW or most any trade show for that matter. Granted they need the buyer so it is a kind of synergy. But how many vendors do we loose each year because buyers use them for nothing more than personal "R&D " departments? The haunters go to the show, look at the vendor's props then go home and try and duplicate them!! Or I love the ones who say "WOW that costs too much! I can build it for $100!!" But no one takes into consideration all the OTHER expenses a vendor incurrs, rent, utilities, staff, insurance, R&D costs, transportaion, trade show expenses and list goes on. ALL of those expenses must go into the cost of the product.

Some of us have unique views because we have seen both sides of the fence. I have been a home haunter and a pro haunter so I see BOTH sides. I used to be a vendor in another field and have worked with vendors in this field and I'm a buyer, again I can see BOTH sides.

What always bothers me is people who have NO idea what it takes to run an attraction or develop and construct a new prop are always the first , the loudest, and the longest to complain, yet are the most unqualified to complain in the first place!

I agree that as a trade show goes, the people that NEED to be there will try and get there no matter where the show is. Heck I'm in Vegas but I prefer the show in Chicago, I grew up in the Chicago area, lived 2 miles from the Rosemont location and have family there I get to visit...but January??? Heck we had people this year that had trouble getting to Vegas because of storms in their area. But if the storm is where the show's at???? It's like Haunters working all year and we get a wet October that kill our numbers!!! As a home haunter a wet Halloween made me lose some time and effort, as a pro haunter I lose a year's income!!!

Orlando? I wouldn't mind, Vegas? No vacation for me! Chicago? No problem except the time slot!

Again I'd follow the show no matter where it goes, but since this is a VENDOR show as opossed to a fan convention we really need to focus on the needs of the bill paying Vendor. How willing are Vendors going to be to buy a bunch of booths, develop a new line of props, when something completely out of EVERYONE's control like the weather stops your customers? Can the Vendor get weather insurance fro the show???

Buyers by all means express your opinion, non-haunt owners express your opinion, but when the people that actually KNOW what they're talking about give you some insight...LEARN from it don't argue against it!

It's like to old joke of the Pope preaching against birth control.
A guy yells from the back "Hey Pope, you no play the game, you no make the rules"

It is definately a synergy, no vendors-no buyers, no buyers-no vendors, but as several people have stated that as a business they will go where ever the show goes So it would seem, as they say in Vegas, the hand goes to the Vendors.

[Speculo]

I agree Rich!

We should do more to support our vendors! Think about it, when you buy something cool, its like having artists and craftsmen working on your haunted house to make it better! They may be in an other state, but it is as if they were working right next to you.

Heres what I think about the knock off issue...

If a vendor is RESELLING something at a HIGH price, they deserve to have you go to the source. Hey if you want to thank them for the idea, buy something from them, but they must expect this.

If a vendor makes something to sell, and it is expensive to the point of being OUT OF LINE with what items like it cost, then they should expect it to be knocked of by haunters.


So basically, I think if you like a cool thing and it is a fair price you should buy it and support the innovation the vendor is bringing to the table.


If a vendor prices an item too high, they should expect it to be knocked off by haunters.

The worst is when VENDORS knock off product. When a haunter knocks off stuff the creating vendor loses ONE sale. When a VENDOR does this, he might actually effect the creating vendor so badly they might not show again.

When we support rip-off vendors who copy product, we are crushing creative innovation from vendors who actully come up with NEW stuff.

As to paying a fee to enter Transworld, why not? If it makes it easier for new creative companies to show that is great! As long as that $50 goes to lowering booth rates I would be cool with that - If it didn't I don't think any of us would want to pay.

Ultimately I think we as haunters should let the vendors and Transworld figure out what they are doing, and then support the decision. All we need to do is jump in a car or hop on a plane and pay for a hotel.....many vendors are paying well over $10000 before the first set of eyes walks by.

Just some thoughts...

Thanks!

Ben
NETHERWORLD

[lurker]

I agree with Ben. This is really up to the vendors to decide.
I don’t buy a lot of product from haunt vendors because we are a low budget haunt, and half the fun for me as an artist is making stuff myself. However we do buy some stuff.
I’d like to see, in the future, a vendor controlled show. That may be an impossibility due to the separate markets (haunt and Halloween) that a lot of vendors have to sell to in order to make a living, but it would be nice. Transworld is always going to do what’s best for Transworld, because that is the nature of business. I hope haunt vendors will start doing the same as a collective.

[hauntedhousenut]

Re Ben

I haven't been to IAAPA, but I believe they charge a fee to get in?

[GoryCorey]

Might as well tell haunt vendors to look for Texas Show follow up now.....

IAAPA -
Costs to display, costs to get in, and you MUST be a member of IAAPA.
I am hoping to attend it this November, just to get the lay of the land.



Jan in Chicago -
PITA, weather, feh, who gives a crud.
It has potential to suck no matter where you go.
BUT
Losing 3 months of development time and prime assembly time - imagine how hard it is to hand fabricate a few thousand webbers and a few hundred cannons (which I did not try to make the loudest, that is a happy accident) each year.
That time gone massively sucks.



Texas Show -
I have a call in NOW, waiting for a return call, to find out how Haunt Show vendor friendly they plan to be, and how they plan to sell the floor.
Will we be in the mix??
Will we be segregated?
Will we be invited to attend at all?
Of course I will ask the important regular vendor questions, costs, attendance estimates (real not the press release pumped up numbers) committed vendor numbers at this point.



Las Vegas in March -
Hell yes expensive.
3x the freight cost.
That many vendors spent 10K before the first pair of eyes came buy, hell, many paid a lot more than that I promise you!

SPRING BREAK AIR FARES????? Kiss my lilly white arse!
Being screwed on the hotel that doesnt exist with a 10 day stay???
Daily rate changes of hotel rates due to spring break???? (refer back to kiss my.....)



TW -
Being dumb as a bag of hammers and lie like a cheap rug... -
Drayage at 2x the cost of the previous shows (TW sets that rate, not Sands)???
Air that did not work 25% of the time???
A show on a floor that bounced more than a trampoline in a condemned facility? Outright lying to us about registered attendance the LV convention bureau had attendance at 4k, not 10k as we were told by TW.

I had newbies and vets alike remark about attendance, all noting it was very thin, to me, I thought Sunday in Vegas looked like the typical Monday in Chicago.

However someone remarked about poor attendance in TWC07, not that I noticed, we spent the entire show slammed, now TWLV08...holy plenty of time for naps, batman.

Being charged MORE for booth space(s) with lower attendance, after being told it would be reduced with the Vegas move (in writing in the announcements to vendors left in our booths in 07 - remember that gang?? ).
Anyone notice we didnt get a pre-registration form for next year...I do not believe Jan in Stephenson is truly set in stone, and TW did have a 2nd year option in Sands for '09. Sorry to add to the rumor mill.



Texas Show Follow up -
I have now spoken to one of the show reps.
"because of the limited size of the convention floor space....It is not planned to have haunt Vendors at the show".
Theoretically I could forgo cannons, and just show webbers, foam products, and LEDs, but this screws out a lot of the Haunt show vendors.
Inquired about having air on the floor to be able to show webbers....unknown at this point.
Pricing is in an email I expect to receive shortly.



Orlando as an option -
Sure, fine just not at spring break time, no need to get screwed on fares and lodging, raised rental car rates, or hailing a taxi that isnt filled with hurl.



Sales -
...fine, if I was in Chicago, I had Chicago numbers and would be satisfied at those expenses, but this was more than 2x the cost
Granted the crew was larger, but that didnt increase my expected cost that much.

What really tied a knot in my nuts.....air being supplied to the Party show floor. That was not ever permitted in Chicago...

That leads to the other point offered earlier, cheap knock off vendors, can use air to sell on the party show floor?
2 booths next year, I will demand air on the Party show floor. Grrrrrrr....

Plus it really bothers me to no end to have no less than a dozen people come to us during the show and tell us our webbers didn't work.
When we asked them "Which model?" and have 'em tell us "it isnt here, but it has a spiderweb on the gun".......
Then have to explain it is NOT ours, it's a infringing knock off and import to boot....
Granted we got orders...but that sort of mistaken identity and crap product can and probably has, cost me a bundle.

I have had home haunters make webbers, have helped out with guidance to M&Ts on how to get an effective webber as a result.
One here and there is goodwill.
When a customer in NB starts making 5k of them in China...'nother story.



Trade shows, Conventions, gatherings, etc, are a biz trip as a vendor.
Whether displaying, marketing, selling or researching.
I believe this is the case for all of us who are manufacturers.
Many of the buyers are in the same position, biz trip, just researching, networking and buying.

[callsonmanor]

Wow, this discussion got a little heated. I currently am making a living doing work for some of the vendors. I would like to say that it is a concern to the vendors on many levels as mentioned before. Some of you may not be aware of what all is involved to get product to the the show. Filling and shipping orders before October then building prototypes for the show by the end of December is a bit of a challenge for some of the smaller vendors. When your shippment is too big for UPS and too small to fill a 28' trailer (1-2 booths worth) you need to allow two weeks time (from the west coast) for shipping in good weather.

A small vendor can expect to be invested $8,000+ just to be there. For a company that grosses less than $125,000 that is a good chunk of money to lose if your shipment does not make it in time. Not to mention the loss of sales for the year. Many vendors count on this show to make a living. They just want it to be successful.

I am a haunter as well, although we are not a large buyer (we spent less than $10,000 this year at Transworld) that would be money missed if I chose not to go. For some of that is spent on an impulse buy. As buyer I can say I do not HAVE to be there. I CAN do my buying from my office, over the phone or via the internet. As someone who makes part of my living from the vendors, I need to see them succeed.

It would be foolish to think that there would be no loss of attendance due to bad weather. How much of an affect I can not say but it will affect it. For instance, people who are already nervous about flying tend to avoid traveling in bad weather. Us spoiled Californians may choose to stay here in the sunshine. I can't say my haunt had its best attendance on rainy nights either. Keep in mind we are not talking about mildly bad weather here. Chicago can get real nasty in January. If it is at all possible to move it a month or two it would make all the difference in my opinion.

The way I see it the people who would be affected the most from bad weather are the small vendors. They are the ones that have the most at risk. If even a small percentage of the buyers don't come they are less likely to be calling the small guy to see what's new. Lets face it, if the only vendors that showed up were ScareFactory, Distortions, Unit 70, and Oak Island, I would stay home brwse there website and call them from here. It is the addition of the small vendors that make it so much better. I look forward to seeing the "who's new" as well as the "what's new". There are many small vendors that I forget even exist untill I see them at the show again. Do I buy from them...Sure. But, I probably would not have if I did not go to the show and that is why I go. So let's think about what is best for the vendors.

[Grimley]

The one or two people that are excited about the show moving to Chicago in Jan don't realize that they may be the only ones there. If the buyers are telling the vendors they won't go or risk the trip (Which we are) then the vendors won't attend. It's kinda sad. I do hope the people at Transworld get their act together and change the date or the location. I really do like the show and would hate to see it come to an end.

[drfrightner]

Let me tell you there is an answer and it's COMING SOON! TRUST ME! It's really interesting to hear all these people freaking out, and or Leonard and clan trying to throw everyone into a frenzy to join is Vendor group, so he can scoop Transworld.

The one thing you HAVE TO REMEMBER... everything everyone says has motivation behind. What is the personal motivation for raising all the red flags...for example Leonard and Hauntcon. Hauntcon is failing bad and I mean bad... he's lost over half of all his vendors, and most of his current vendors are new people who don't know they won't make any serious money. Hauntcon is NOT a buyers show...period!

Hearse rallies, garage sales, grab bag seminars, horror movies, and all that is NOT what people who own business' care about. Yes its fun, and yes it is a great social experience, but someone who is making a living or trying to make a living, or wants to make a living from operating haunted houses want.

I told TW for TWO YEARS NO ONE CARES about that silly haunters pavilion. Let me take that back yes some people cared, but its the same group that loves the social side of the business, and that is the MINORITY group.

The MAJORITY group wants to walk the floor and find NEW products, NEW concepts, and cool stuff to improve their business.

Transworld has ALWAYS been about buyers and sellers coming together, people come with check books! Hauntcon is a social experience, and a hybrid of different people who come. MHC tries to specialize in seminars for actors and stuff like that, and yes there is a place for all of that, and its important, but a buyers seller show is by far the most important need, and everything else is secondary.

Transworld has filled this need for buyers and sellers coming together. However I will say they have NOT done a GREAT job at promoting our vendors to new buyers, new industries, and other buyers, mainly because they are a retail show for the most part. Their focus has always been on the retail aspects of Halloween and haunts kind of came along for the ride. One minute they wanted us gone then the next minute they wanted us to stay... I personally think they want us to stay. The haunted house side of their show is the most exciting element, period!

The haunted house has grown, and maybe we've grown to big or to important to our own industry to play second fiddle to Transworld's retailers anymore. I don't know but I do know something has to happen for the future of this industry. I'm sorry but Leonard or Hauntcon is not the answer... he has tried for what 5 years to get buyers to his show and has failed. How many vendors have walked for lack of sales? I know people hate to hear that this is still a business, but it is...yes its fun but its also a business. People have to pay their bills just like everyone else, companies have to make profits.

It cost a lot of money to go to tradeshows, no matter Hauntcon or Transworld or IAAPA or anything between. So when you invest that kind of time and money, you want a major return on investment. No different than if you make an investment in your haunted house you want a return on your investment. Again yes fun to do but still you have to make a profit.

This is a business first and foremost. Hauntcon is fun, yes I encourage you to go and have a great time...MHC, bring your actors, learn and communicate with others in your field, all great. But when it comes to bringing buyers and sellers together a place where Scarefactory can unload their 5 trucks worth of stuff they are investing 100 plus K they need people who don't care about going to a hearse rally, they need people who write checks.

Its two different types of people, two different breeds, and yes some are one in the same, but most are NOT!

These shows can always survive as a mild buyer seller event, and lean heavy on the social aspects, but a REAL buyers seller show is what Transworld has always been. If and when you are going to replace this you must have something that a Scarefactory or a Unit 70, or a Fright Props, or whomever can rely on for a HUGE chunk of sales.

Its a different kind of show, its a different kind of buyer, its a whole different animal.

Whoooo... now let me say again I do NOT think going to Houston is the answer. At this point I'm not sure Transworld is the answer anymore. That industry (Halloween retail) in my opinion is ruining a good thing over greed... so Transworld show might suffer or worse. Is going to Transworld for half the buyers and half the exhibitors the answer? Is half going to Houston one week and the other half going to Chicago the week before the answer for haunt owners???? NO F*CKING WAY!

I have NO doubts that Transworld is trying to fix this problem, and is trying to get this flopped around, and maybe they pull it off and maybe they don't. We shall see...however I think there are other options that will emerge very soon!

My first goal would be to see if somehow we can help Transworld, that should be the first option.

Larry


Larry

[Jim Warfield]

Keep rolling that old magic 8-Ball till the right answer comes up.
Weather-wise for Transworld in Chicago I vote for the end of March.
January of 07 was a fluke, maybe the warmest, nicest spring like January ever, it can happen but the odds are not with it.
Does Transworld get the place cheaper in the off-season of January? Is this the whole determining factor? Would this factor out weigh everything else? I doubt it.
Playing the odds it should not be in January because the other odds say attendance by vendors and customers might be real thin.
I was always told the previous Transworlds held in Vegas were very much non-events, so where should the surprise be when once again the place is not filled or as busy as it could be?

With every short-sighted decision that old floor space just gets more and more difficult to sell the next time.

As far as my agenda for saying the things I just did =1) I have lived in Illinois (northern portion) all my life and I know what the weather here is capable of .
2)I don't like seeing people I know and care about subjected to unnecesarry risks and hazards on the road just because someone made a bad decision possibly not familiar with northern Illinois weather.
As far as possible haunter visitors coming or not coming to tour my house during Transworld, that is no big deal one way or the other but if the weather is hideous some will always try to make it here then and this concern outweighs any other feelings I might have .

[RJ Productions]

It seems the Haunt Vendors are the only ones who don't have an association or show that is vendor based. IAAPA services their vendors and industry at a time and location convenient to both. The costume companies formed the NCA and are moving away from TW to do their own show. The party store owners have their own association are combining, again to service their vendors and buyers.

The Haunt industry remains the “bastard step-child” always stuck attending someone else’s party!

Sure we have Hauntcon…. Or do we? Hauntcon had a great opportunity but fell to the same pressures that have befallen the IAHA, not focusing on its market and trying to be the “end all be all”. So just like the IAHA, Hauntcon has become a fan based gathering not an industry based gathering. I’m not saying there is anything wrong with that. Face it, there are more home haunters than pro haunters, so Hauntcon services the people paying their bills, the show goers. Home and pro haunters alike can go to Hauntcon, see haunts, party, go to a masquerade ball, see hearses, what ever. It can be a great time, but you don’t go there to see vendors and make major purchases for your haunt.

The vendors need TW to listen to them. They know the haunt buyers better than anyone and they know what they need to do to stay in business. If January in Chicago does not make sense, then the vendors have to step up to the plate and let TW know what THEY need! It has been stated that the move to January is to benefit the suppliers that are bringing product in from overseas. They need the additional time to get product to the Walmarts and K-Marts so it’s on the shelves in August. How does that affect the Haunt Vendor that is based in the US? They just get done shipping the last of their product in October then have a month maybe two to prototype and create new props for the next show???

In a perfect world vendors would be creating product a year or two in advance. But our business is somewhat more impulsive, or should I say more “currently reactive”. What direction the horror industry takes somewhat dictates the direction the haunt business goes. The Mummy movies come out, Egyptian themed props become prevalent. The vendor that can react quicker may make more sales. Can they accomplish that from October to end of November???

We go to TW because that is where the major Haunt Vendors go. There are party store buyers that buy from the Haunt Vendors, but how many haunt buyers frequent the party vendors?? A VERY small percentage. Haunt buyers don’t need to go where the TW Party Show is, they need to go where the HAUNT SHOW is. I will go where I can see the greatest amount of haunt vendors, I just hope my plane can land once I get there. SO Haunt Vendors need to decide what’s best for them and their buyers and have TW satisfy those needs, or find someone that will.

[Monster-Tronics]

To be to be honest, I have not been following this thread since when I first looked at it, it was people crying about the weather in Jan. Kevin Alvey and I initiated talks about a vendors group (in my Helmet Cam thread) which had NOTHING to do with Leonard and Hauntcon. I had no idea that Leonard even had HVC (Halloween VC) and don’t think Kevin knew either. Someone posted that it existed and had a yahoo group so we thought it might be a good vehicle to use. With that said, it may not be worth using if it has baggage and is associated with or as a “Leonard’s clan” group. We need to stand alone as a haunt vendors group.

A vendors group is needed not just because of ALL of the TW issues, there are many other reasons too. We need a voice in our own fate! If the vendors let haunt owners decide what show is best for us to show at, we all should be shot. If you pick the hardest place to ship product to and the worst show company to work with, and the most expensive show to have a booth at, just because they have hot chicks in lingerie or want a Chi hot dog…. most of the small haunt vendors will die off because of the cost and problems.

I don’t know how many time I have heard Larry say “TW is a buyers show” yes a wholesale costume buyers show and the Haunt portion is 99% retail. TW does not want retail buyers there nor does the costume show and they have made that very clear.

Using an existing HAUNT show that already has a large following of only haunters and that does not cost vendors a fortune is just common sense. Since MHC is in Ohio and a large number of haunt vendors are in and around Ohio that may make more sense to focus on if the date was better then a moving target like HC. I don’t think haunt buyers have any idea what it is costing them in increased product costs when vendors have to put out a huge amounts of money to do these shows. For me as a small vendor, it is the MOST expensive part of my business therefore shows up as a huge percentage of your cost when you buy my product.

If a haunt show has other things going on for haunters and can help draw more haunters because of it, that can only help the show floor and the vendors the way I see it. If a haunter that is a total hermit wants to come as a buyer only to do business they can, they to not have to participate in anything that is social, they can come for the vendor show floor and do business only.

Haunt buyers don’t understand that this is a small industry and even Scarefactory is not selling a million of one item so we all have to be conservative on how we spend our marketing dollars.

Bottom line is… if vendors get together to help reduce cost of sale, keep each other honest and work closer with show owners it will only help the haunt industry!!!

[graystone]

Larry?

Do you know something everyone else dont know? If so spill it man I have caught hell for sticking with TransWorld. Everything you said I totally agree with. Now I want you to fill in the blanks.

[Gore Galore]

Larry,
Really!
Leonard nor any other convention organizer has anything to do with the Haunt Vendor discussion.
We simply need a vendor association.
After that is somewhat organized we will discuss how to best serve our membership.
Regardless of what that means.

[xxxdirk]

I am sure there are a few vendors that all they want is to write he orders and then go back to their rooms and count their money. However Haunters want the best of both worlds. We want to order the cool props and be able to party too. If TW will not be willing to provide this, haunters will start looking at a different place to go to. Perhaps we are beginning to see this thought process happening with the haunters. If I have a choice to orderstuff from a "friend" like Kevin or a company that I feel has the same type of product, but makes me or my staff feel like they are only after our $, guess who I am going to order from? A little bit of friendliness goes a long way, especially if the friendliness is backed by great product and great service.

Of couse hauntcon and MWHC are not as big as TW for the sheer number of vendors, but they make up for that with the education, tours and "partying". I am not a vendor, but I would be really interested to know if the amount of percentage of sales compared to the booth fees at HC & MWHC is actually better.

I will take a wait n see attitude and go to the conventions that give me the best chance to see the new stuff as well as the best chance for education and partying. So far it seems TW is only leading in the 1st catagory.

[Grimley]

I never mentioned switching to Hauntcon or Leonards show. I am interested in the show Rubies is putting together next year in Houston.