Based on an argument going on.. How many here are christians?

[Jim Warfield]

The Value Of this Thread.

People not haunters may read it and come to the conclusion that all of us are not agents for satan.
Great "god" Buck, maybe?

[kpolley]

badass,

I have to say that it seems like a pretty HUGE leap to call Christian haunters heretics. Any legitimate Christian church or denomination would reserve such a strong word for only the most grevious of offenses. Only those who denounce the fundamental doctrines of Christianity are guilty of heresy. For instance, denial of the Trinity, denial of Christ's divinity, denial of the absolute and complete authority of scripture, etc. would be considered heretical...not being a haunter. I don't know why anybody needs to resort to name calling in an effort to discredit someone else's faith. That seems childish.

The conversation keeps coming back to "Christians think they are right and others are wrong." Here are a couple points to consider:

1. TRUE Christians do not think they are "right" when that word implies that they have it all firgured out. We do believe that we are following the one true God...but to say that we are right or that we don't make mistakes is laughable. In fact...it might be close to heresey...

2. Of course we believe that our faith is the best option, otherwise we wouldn't follow it. Before you choose to jump down my throat about that...think on this. Haven't people in just the past couple posts attacked us saying either we're heretics or arrogant? Do they go on to back up those thoughts with some kind of evidence? It sounds like they think we are wrong and that they have the correct way of looking at faith/religion. It's no different.

3. As unpopular as this statement will be...Christians know and accept that the Gospel is going to be offensive to some people. Christ himself warned us of this fact centuries ago. He said that it would be offensive to some people, that we would be persecuted because of it, and that many of us would even die for it. It is never my intention to offend anyone and I try very hard to never be offensive with my language especially in a conversation like this. I may fail sometimes, but I try. If the listener/reader is offended, however, my the message itself and not the delivery...that is if the Gospel itself is what offends you...I won't apologize for that. The Bible teaches many things that are offensive to us. I'm offended by things that It teaches...and that's a good thing. We are fallen creatures in a fallen world. The Gospel should be offensive to us as it is intended to buck our sinful nature.

Finally, I just want to challenge this very common notion that many people realize the Bible isn't 100% fact and that it's a lot of made up stories. That is heresy. 2 Timothy 3:16 says "All Scripture is God-breathed and is useful for teaching, rebuking, correcting and training in righteousness". To say that parts of the Bible are untrue or made-up is strictly contrary to scripture and, therefore, heretical. There is an overwhelming amount of evidence to back up what the scriptures say. Read C.S. Lewis' Mere Chrisitanity or Tim Keller's The Reason for God for some amazing insight into proofs of the Bible's credibility. I think they are important reads for Christians...but for Non-Christians alike. To be true to your faith, whatever it is (Christian, Aetheist, etc.) you should always be willing to explore the opposing view points. It will challenge your own and in the end change them or strengthen them. I haven't started it yet, but for my next long plane or car ride I plan on reading Richard Dawkins' The God Delusion. I've read a couple chapters...and it's a tough read for me...but his challenges of the scriptures strengthen my faith. I think on them, read scriptures pertaining to them, pray on them, and come out better on the other side. I encourage all non-believers to challenge themselves as well. Read Keller's or Lewis' book and tell me it didn't challenge your thoughts on faith. Heck...it challenged MINE!

I know there are those who wish this thread would die. I'll be honest with you, though...as long as people are having a discussion here and as long as people are raising objections to my faith I really can't help but post. It's not a "I have to have the last word" or a "I have to prove them wrong" kind of thing, it's more that I just love these conversations. Faith is a fascinating topic of discussion for me and I'm always excited to talk about it with others...especially those with differing views.

I think I've said enough for now...my fingers are tired...

[badass]

slow your roll

ok peace my brothers..
understand this is a discussion...
and that means it is an exchange of ideas..
not an attack on you our your beliefs...
i am not interested in being addressed like i am doing this...
i am doing the same thing you are...discussing opinions and ideas...
i havent gone and read what everyone has said...
merely expressing what i have been taught by theologians about this


now for todays lesson

a heretic is someone that is doing something that conflicts with the standard belief...like albert einstein or any of the great scientist ..or Galileo....any ways.. times change remember the church used to kill people....lotsa people...but now they see things differently...how times change but being a christian doesnt

could it be that
Public sentiment easily blinds todays so called christians as to their obligations as true christians...??

by definition...A true christian loves and serves the lord supremely and above all else in this world...even above your own family...and should only do the lords work
in recreation or employment or anything else.....and anything that conflicts with this is worldliness

a haunted house by nature ...glorifies evil....not god....hmmmm..like it or not.....

i studied theology at prep school..and am friends with and have had lengthy conversations with the dean of st charles about this subject and my operating haunted hooch....

reminds me of a lesson
None are so efficient agents of the devil as the inconsistent professors of religion...
which means...
the truths of the gospel are simple..but the world is soo greatly removed from the truth of the word that christians greatest duty is to illustrate the word of god in life in all they do...it is manifest that a true christian obstain from anything that does not glorify god or instead of the professed christian be glorifying god..but actually be dishonoring him...

soo i ask..
how does your haunted house glorify god..???..
is it ok in the eyes of the lord to proclaim the gospel by day..
and splatter blood for entertainment by night???

kip....dont call me childish...
i am not trying to discredit you or anyone else
i am not name calling..
for i am standing beside you in this....
but we all must stand before the lord alone...

and he might ask us

peace

[badass]

Hell why not

The heretic anthem rawks...
hell..everyone i know will be there..
and atleast it will be warm..right ?

[drfrightner]

does this thread EVER END?

[kpolley]

Badass,

I respect your opinion...it's one I have heard many times before when it comes to Christians and haunting. I do have a couple things to say about it, though.

1. You are still using the worldly definition of the term heretic in a Christian context and that doesn't work. A heretic, when using the term applied to the church, is someone who openly defies core doctrine. Again, these include Christ's divinity, the Trinity, Bible Authority, Creation, Christ as the only path to salvation, etc. You can call someone a heretic if you like, but it doesn't apply here if these very specific criteria aren't met.

2. I know there are haunts out there that glorify evil...I wouldn't be a part of one. I think everybody here knows that I work with Larry's haunts, specifically The Darkness, and I wouldn't work there if I wasn't comfortable with it. To say that it glorifies evil is a bit of a stretch. To begin with, the idea of "glorifying" something is that we present it in such a way that it appeals to people...that they want to have it or be a part of it. To glorify sex is to make others want to have sex too. I've never had anyone leave our haunt saying they wanted to be a mummy or a zombie or a killer for that matter. Fun we build, to get right down to it, are elaborate fun houses. They are meant to scare people, yes, but they are meant to be fun. I wouldn't be a part of a haunt that delves into the darker stuff with satanic imagery and whatnot. We have had actors paint upside down crosses on their heads and whatnot and I always have them change it if I see it. It's just not something that I would let go into the haunt. That's where I draw a line.

3. I have a close group of Christian friends that I really respect and look to for guidance on spiritual matters. Each year I run my new product ideas past them to get their feedback. Just last year we altered one of my pieces that they felt was going too far. I will never produce a product that I have moral conflicts about and I work very hard to stay true to that and my friends act as a voice of reason when i do misstep.

I think it's obvious that you don't share my faith and that is your choice. However, as I said before, I'd challenge you to be much more open to differing opinions to your own and read some much more enlightened and much more eloquent writers than I. I know it has helped me to better understand why I believe what I believe.

[Raycliff Manor]

Free virtual hugs coming out to ALL my haunt Brothers and Sisters!

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=hN8CK...layer_embedded

Enjoy!

Kel

[SomeThingInTheIce]

For the love of God and all that is holy, LOCK THIS THREAD!

[rwrussom]

As Christians, we acknownledge the basic premiss that we are wrong, we are fallen and only through Christ do we have hope. That is a far from being right, perfect, or having all the answers.

What always concerns me in these discussions, are the people who say they believe in god or a higher power and then insert thier own definition. A good employee has a great interest in what will please his employer, a good servant will seek to plese his master. Why is it when faced with a supreme being, many choose not to search for the answers to what is pleasing to him?

With regard to Christians running or working a haunt. I would agree that is a slippery slope. Do they use the oportunity to reach nonbelievers? This was of great concern for me as i started down the professional haunt path. We take the oportunity to shed off some of the unfun, boring stigma that may follow Christians. We have a blessing/prayer before every show before cast is sent to places. While attendance is not required, most look forward to it. We have had kids from homes without religion begin attending youth groups. We also use the oportunity to promote some community minded ministries I am involved in with videos intermingled with other line entertainment videos.

Being a Christian haunter is an oportunity to reach people, do you TRY to live up to the challange?

Im glad this issue stays in one thread. For those interested its here, otherwise the forums are for haunt discussions. On the other hand, you must cast your nets where the fish are.

[ClusterOne]

Religion and politics, two things people shouldn't talk about...and this is the reason, it never ends!

Let's all give virtual high fives to each other and move on to haunt building!

-Joel-

[Raycliff Manor]

Just an FYI, in response to an email that was sent to me, and for clarification, when I said I was sending virtual hugs to ALL my Haunt Brothers and Sisters, I meant ALL Haunters, regardless of your beliefs.

Kel

[WeAreTheUnion]

You say that we both base out beliefs on blind faith but I disagree. Everyone is blind until they open their eyes. My faith is cemented everyday. Once you learn to see that God is in control and responsible for all things good, your faith will grow.

I've known a few atheists in my lifetime. From how I see it an atheist is one disaster, one large stroke of bad luck or turn of events away from turning to God for help. I've seen it. Problem is, too many think of God as a lawyer only turning to him when they need help or are in trouble...

Kip has offered to have a discussion on his beliefs why not take him up on his offer...

Allan

My faith is very strong. I have full faith in science and logic. I have no need for a god on top of that.
I see god as an escape from having to deal with death. It makes life more pleasant, but I can't possibly believe it. It doesn't make any sense.
I'm trying really hard to be respectful and nice in this conversation, and what I'm getting back is "well someday you'll see why you're wrong..."
Don't condescend me. I'm not a naive child who's going to wake up and see the err of my ways.

To everyone complaining about this thread - I don't see anything wrong with an off-topic discussion like this.

[MDKing]

Wearetheunion, why have you not addressed any of Kip's comments???


I'm all for science and logic too, the more you learn about science and logic the more you realize there is a God.

To all those complaining about this thread, we here understand that you are not interested and feel free to skip over it while reading the other threads. Clicking on it and reading it then complaining about it seems rather pointless when you don't HAVE to read it...


Allan

[rwrussom]

Christianity is not about makeing death easier, it comes for all. It serves much more to make life better.

A true atheist is a rare thing. I would find it difficult to accept that life has no purpose. That all existence is random chance, coins being flipped trillions of times until eventually heads comes up enough to create something, tough sell for me. Now choosing to believe in science and logic does not disallow belief in God. But, an atheist who chooses to be lead by science and logic also would appear to come under the comtrol of logics evil twin, random chance. Again, not something I would choose to surrender to.

From a logical point of view, isn't atheism risky? If one could accept that it is not possible to know if there is a God for certain (what is believed is not fact), then wouldn't logic dictate that one buy the insurance on that bet? The cost of the insurance is relatively small compared to the price of loosing the bet.

[kpolley]

rwrussom,

you make some fantastic points. Glad to have you in the discussion.

I'll make this one quick...I just wanted to comment on the reply that God is just a way to deal with death. It goes right along side beliefs that religion is meant to make people behave or keep children from doing wrong. I believe all of these opinions are only justified if you have never really explored the scripture. I'ts like me saying that I know what South Africa is like since I have heard people talk about it once or twice. If I dug deeper, researched, or even went there I would find my thoughts on it to be very different then the reality.

Christianity is not a way to deal with death. Instead, it is an acknowledgement that this world and everything in it is broken, that WE broke it, and that only God can fix it. I don't think anyone would disagree that the world is majorly flawed...so at least we're all on board with the beginning. Christianity is about forming a real, honest relationship with the God that created this world and everything that inhabits it. I think a study of the scriptures would produce that view 100% of the time. Choosing to then reject the scriptures is another issue, but to boil the Gospel down to end of life comfort is unfair and unrealistic.

Oh yeah...thanks for the hug Kel.