Money Back Haunt LLC. (BS scheme or good marketing?)

[icarian]

LOL! I trademarked (Haunted House, Haunted Atrraction, Hay Ride, Dark Ride, Woods, Trailer, Boo, Terror, Horror, Clowns, Chainsaws & Blood.) Plus I just passed my Bar Exam and am looking to do a lot of suing! So bring it people!

Howie

LOL! posts like this make me wish we had a "like" button. Larry?

[wickedfarmer]

Live and let live...

Well; I was joking with Howie. Unfortuneately I can not say so with owner who licensed the words...(sorry forgot name and didn't go back to look.) Yes we disagree. I never had or probably never will have money back haunt. But there is an occasion once in a while when I do refund for some situation..and yes I believe you are only interested in the "advertisng/displaying" of your registered words. But we get bent out of shape on disagreements. My other hobby is American Civil War. Huge disagreement on how to run a country and for it 2 million died. Well some of us unfortuneately have it in our blood to stand up against what is legal when it is not right. I trace mine all the way back to Benjamin Benjamin who enlisted in Fitches Co. in 2nd Conn. Regiment on Sept 15th of 1777. His son James benjamin served as well. Damn I hope I never get the notion to run a money back haunt. I'm a stubborn SOB who never backs down...sorry just who I am. Good luck in your endevours and I hope you guys and all involved have a smoother transaction than what I forsee.

Mark Benjamin
AKA Wicked Farmer

[graystone]

Howie

[QUOTE=Howie Slobber Erlich;133531]Shane,

I Applaud you for defending your friend. I think the main reasons that people are upset with Chris are simple. 1. He is still claiming this is or was his idea. This after admitting he used Fred's concept and was explained how to do it by Fred himself. Also it is an insult to anyone who ever did a money back haunt before him. 2. He is threatening people that if they use Money Back haunt or any variation in their advertising or at their haunt he will go after them legally to try and scare them off. We all know that he will never win a law suit on this issue for the reasons you stated as well as others but he still doesn't understand that. He thinks he'll actually win.

A big part of what he is trying to sell is that he will go after anybody who uses "money back". Because that really would be the only way to protect his licensees and guarantee them any sort of territorial rights. He can't and won't be suing them. As of a couple day ago, I spent several hours searching the Internet. There are at least 27 haunts that have either done or are doing some sort or money back haunt. By your figure, $6500.00 x 27 = $175,500.00 on law suits. Not to mention the time involved that it would take to go after each one of these haunts.

I hope this thread goes away as well. All it is doing now is creating more buzz and free advertising. I think that all points have been made by both sides. We have stated our feelings and he has not changed or admitted doing anything thing wrong or shady. My only hope is that real haunters out there will understand that they do not need him or his license to do a money back haunt. There are plenty of ways around it without the fear of being sued. I would never do another money back haunt because frankly after 12 years since I introduced it, it has been done so many times that very few customers even care about it anymore. And even worse, this concept where they have to do the "Fear Factor" stuff is even worse and possibly dangerous. I wonder what the health department thinks about what he is making people do to get their money back? I think I will make a few calls about that later today.

And it's I don't steal other peoples ideas then claim them as my own Howie this time!

*************************Howie I feel ya and I guess as much as I like Chris my real point is after talking with an attorney that deals with a multi billion dollar company and it's trademark he says that the use of any of the words will not hold up. I think Chris and his attorney see it different and that's the way it usually goes. So who's right and who's wrong? Honestly I don't see Chris spending years in Court over this I could be wrong but if that's the case the damn courts are in for mass chaos and full blown hell that will only end up being thrown out. I mean hey it can be tied up in courts and appeals for years and I feel the end result will be...... All this was just silly as this is not a new source of wording. Has anyone tried to trademark the term " Guaranteed Scarest Haunt or Scarest Haunt, Longest Haunt, Darkest Haunt, Cheapest Haunt, God this could go on for ever.

I wish you all the best of luck on both sides because honestly I aint giving no damn money back to anyone! I said it before you either like it or you don't and I think it's going to be much like the concept that there will come a time people will just say theres really no way your going to get your money back unless you don't eat dog shit, drink puke, sniff sperm or stick your nose in a fishy twat!!!! I mean come on for real and honestly the way I see it that Fear Factor concept is just not scary but hey to each his own! You guys have fun runnng up huge attorney bills and trying to figure out who came up with all this. I got a Haunt I love and your going to pay to get in and scared or not YOU WILL NOT GET A DAMN DIME BACK FROM ME!!! Shane and it's Howie my tag line now has a trademark on it so don't use my line!!!!!! Shane

[Howie Slobber Erlich]

I will say this, and it's easy to look up. My ex partner and I did Service Mark the slogan "The Only Haunted House where You Can Get Your Money Back." After we split from each other, at some point he let it expire. So that is still up for grabs. Chris can't prevent the Service Mark from being used. Like I said numerous times, my problem is with him claiming he came up with the idea and trying to threaten anybody from attempting to use a similar idea. I will bet that there will be plenty of haunts that do some sort of money back theme this year and none of them will be successfully sued!

I did do some checking with the Health Department in Tennessee as well as Michigan today. Without getting into to details about what I found out, I can say that both states were very interested in what the "Fear Factor" Style haunts are doing. I was assured there are some serious health concerns involved with the digestion of insects and large quantities of hot sauce. Tennessee told me they will be looking into this matter and I should receive a response within the next couple of weeks.

Howie

[Deathwing]

Good work Howie, I think what you're doing is a service to the entire industry.

Thanks!

Jake

[wickedfarmer]

Second....

Good work Howie, I think what you're doing is a service to the entire industry.

Thanks!

Jake

I second that. Yeah; that in itself may have adverse consequences. But I made myself known when a youth event my daughter went to did the "milk Challenge" See if you can drink a gallon of milk! You can't. Something in the milk causes your body to vomit before you finish. Nothing like 20 kids puking all over the church. Look at the comments people who went there put... cant see for an hour...a couple made that comment. The link is buried several pages back in the forum.

[Howie Slobber Erlich]

Thanks Jake!

There will be a lot more to this whole story in a couple weeks. Unfortunately, there may be several haunts that are going to be very disappointed with some news thats coming soon. I am not trying to be mean however, there may be more serious legal issues with this whole thing than Trademarks and intellectual rights.

Howie

[Greg Chrise]

Shanes resource is a multi billion dollar account attorney. Thinks it isn't noteworthy. However in the small business world, the attorney isn't necessarily that bright, possibly even despirate and will take it to court costing who ever they pick out money to defend themselves even if unsuccessful. Even being unsuccessful or even being thrown out at some point costs money. It costs money just to get the details of what you are being threatened with. Often an insurance deductable has been chosen and so these are out of pocket expenses that would not have to happen.

So what are they gonna get if you could actually close down on someone? Some rotted latex and rotted plywood? Make up supplies with cooties in them?

This whole mind set of people thinking business is normally conducted at small business level like how Yale Law School teaches how lawyer practices should think, is the whole problem. Even this guy paying maybe $600 for all these trademaks has been ripped off by the system. A miss application of business theory. A fear that someone with more money or time is just going to take of with this idea? Or that the government is going to do something or can do something.

I just really wish people could use reality of what a small business is, what it really requires and how it can actually conduct itself. Usually it is very simple, if your work sucks you don't get paid. If you damage someone's property you have to pay for it. If you have made someone a shit load of money they will continue to pay you because they want another shit load in the future. Yet somehow everyone needs to test out the system by talking to some attorney who is not really sure either what can be done. The whole system is guinnee pig territory. Gray areas of peoples egos and pride of ownership and usually with nothing to back it up.

It was a nice booth though. I guess transworld wins for collecting rent.

[drfrightner]

It is hard to say who came up with the idea of a money back haunted house but I know it is NOT anyone posting on these boards... the concept has been around forever. In fact anyone who has used the concept is copying from the urban legend of a money back haunt. We've all heard the urban legend of a 13 story haunted house, with a lion, and if you make it to the top you get your money back.

We've also seen several haunts over the years use the same concept of a money back haunted house, in fact I think one was called Urban Legends.

The overall concept of a money back haunted house can NOT be trademarked by ANYONE ... so if someone wanted to open up a haunted house with the concept of getting your money back somehow they can! No suit against them would hold up and I believe the trademark could be fought and they'd lose it ... just because you get a trademark doesn't mean you really own the concept. It is up to the person who gets the trademark to ensure the concept is truly unique. If you do a true trademark process it would cost you thousands of dollars, and tons of research.

Many attorney's will tell you up front we can do a cheap version of research or an indepth one... any research on this concept would have come back with other haunts doing the same thing. This trademark would NOT under ANY circumstances hold up in court trust me on that one... the only WAY it would hold up is if is offering some very unique way you get your money back.

Unique to him and his business, something he can prove without any doubt is unique and original to his business.

Fact is Money Back are generic words and can't be trademarked so are the words haunted, house, attraction and well Halloween.

I'm sorry but this trademark would NOT hold up in my opinion and it wouldn't take much to get the mark thrown out... again you must do a lot of homework to ensure you can get a mark. A big company might spend hundreds of thousands of dollars to try and trademark something. Most people who get trademarks spend only hundreds, and again while other companies could spend a million. There is a LOT of research done to protect marks then later in court millions more trying to fend off litigation where people challenge them. This is why you do the research up front and a lot of it.

If I was or most of you in this room where brought to court you'd say yeah we know of haunts doing the same thing prior... boom thrown out.

Here is the real bottom line... he hasn't stated exactly what makes his mark unique to him, and unless you know that exactly you just don't know what he's offering.

So do I know if his mark is generic, copied from past haunts, an original concept, or whatever... no I don't. Do I think the overall concept is something that has been done before...yes I do.

If I wanted to do some sort of money back promotion would I be afraid of his mark NO I WOULD NOT! Like I said without knowing exactly what his business plan is, the overall concept of his marketing plans its unfair for anyone to say his plan is or isn't unique or original and would hold a valid mark. If he has a great idea and he invented it and it could help you business you should contact him and talk to him about it. He just might have a really great idea he came up with, and it could help your business drastically even. I don't doubt for one second that he has a great idea that will help many haunts, and that his concept is original and unique but on the other hand I also know the concept of a money back haunted house is NOT original and its been done before.

So again without knowing the details it really is unfair for anyone to say one way or another.

But if his concept is really no different than what has been done before ... no its old news and not original.

Larry

[JamBam]

Use it if you did before and probably after as well

Shane, You did defend your friend but also gave the right scoop on the common words not being able to be protected.

Haunted Castle, you were using it as well as Howie's list of 27 other haunts were using this concept are legal in continuing the same words and business that you were before he trademarked his "font". If you were using the same font,you may need to change it, but the use before his trademark is allowed to CONTINUE.. Even if it were a special word now protected by the law, the previous use by others cannot be taken away from them.


Money back dude, you are correct in trying to protect what you have filed for, but you need to be careful that you don't get sued yourself for threatening something you don't have legal rights to and the precise aspect of that. By the way, you lost credibility by not being able to defend yourself professionally.

Will I ever use the money back haunt or words like it? Probably not. Not seeing this as any future use, but I will not be afraid to use it if I change my mind based on threats of lawsuits. I would have my attorney check it out and decide then. But if I did use the words in marketing, I know that I would probably use it in a traditional haunt actually scaring the customer out the old fashioned way. That is what nearly 100% of customers I have heard from expect, not a add on challenge.

By the way, "money back challenge at the haunt" might be trademarkable.

Good luck!

[Howie Slobber Erlich]

Larry, you are absolutely correct. Nobody who posts on these boards created the idea of a money back haunted house. Because the rumored one that you speak of, never existed. What I did was take a few things from that haunt that everyone had always heard about and turned it into the first real money back haunted house. My ex partner and I have disagreed on many issues in the past, but I sure he would back me when I say that it was a great idea that worked amazingly well, even beyond what we hoped for or imagined it would do.

We based the entire them around the rumored haunt. We asked "Are you afraid of rats, snakes and spiders?" Told them it was "Multiple levels of fear." And told them if they make it all the way through the entire haunt they would get their money back. We based almost all the rooms on different Urban Legends the first year and it was a very scary, well designed haunt. And yes, we named it Urban Legends Haunted House to play even more on the old story. We Registered the name and Service Marked "The only haunted house where you can get your money back." We saw our attendance almost triple from years before.

We did not have any "Fear Factor" type of tricks either. It was really very simple. They must go through every room of the haunt including finding the secret money back room. We had several rooms that we used so that people could not tell other people where the room was hidden. When someone found the room, the actor inside took a Polaroid of their group and sent them the rest of the way through the haunt. Once they finished the haunt they took the picture to our ticket booth. Sirens and beacon lights would go off to let the crowd know that someone got their money back. The we would immediately place their picture on our wall of fame for everyone to see. The first year aver 2000 people received their money back.

It was a great idea based on the original urban legend. We gave the customers exactly what they wanted and just at the right time. There were no problems with customers complaining because there was physical proof that some people were getting their money back. In fact, we had many customers come back multiple times to try and find the room.

We received tons of local media attention as well as a lot of national attention. It was some of the most fun I have ever had in my 26 years of haunting.

So, in reality, the first real money back haunted house creator actually does post on this forum on a regular basis. ME! This is why it upsets me when others claim the idea as their own or pulls any scams involving money back haunts. Myself and my ex business partner are the creators of this idea of a money back haunt. We were the first ones to ever come up and implement a workable way to play off the mythical haunt and be successful doing it.

Now the whole truth is out there. Any more questions or claims of originating the idea of a money back haunt?

Howie "Slobber" Erlich

[drfrightner]

Couple more things...

1) No matter if you agree with someones marketing plans, or whatever they are offering there is no reason for name calling. I can't read through 14 pages of this stuff but I've been told there has been a lot of name calling. So lets cut that and stick to just talking about the concepts pro or con.

2) No matter what anyone says about how came up with the concept for a money back haunt... I can't confirm who did it first because its been out there for years and years. I remember several debates on this topic about 5 years ago because several haunts were doing this not just one... I stand by what I've said from then to now... its plain and simple a marketing gimmick. I think its done to cover up or mask that your haunt just isn't that good... at least that would be my impression. If you have a great haunt why would you even do something like this? So me personally I could care less who does this because me personal I would not. On the flip if it works for YOU that is GREAT... really no different than a hayride works for one but not another. Its okay be me either way... I just wouldn't do it.

3) Again and just to be clear you don't nor does most of us doing all the talking knows exactly what he is offering or not offering... so what he's offering could be original and unique. I can't believe there is 14 pages of comments and over 5,000 views on the topic. Might be slightly overblown.

He's selling a concept that overall is not unique but maybe they have a unique spin on it who knows. I know this much for sure his business has gained a lot of PR that is one thing we know for sure!!!

Larry

[Howie Slobber Erlich]

Larry,

I don't remember there really being any name calling, at least not from me. I have stated that this is not his original idea. He even confirmed it by stating that he took the information from another haunt that was already doing it and tweaked it a bit to better fit his needs. Some people did say he is scamming customers. Again, not me in fact I said just the opposite that I was not saying it was a scam. I did say that this idea was not original and not his idea. That is not name calling.

So you say stop the name calling and then in the next breath tell me and everyone else who has ever done a money back haunt that "its done to cover up or mask that your haunt just isn't that good..." To me that is very insulting and really just saying that our haunts must suck! Thanks a lot for that. I know you have never visited any of my haunts and probably none of the other money back haunts either. I think that is pretty much name calling if you ask me!

Yes, any version of the money back haunt is simply a marketing tool to help increase funds and exposure to our haunts. Not necessarily a "Gimmick" Though. Much like stating you are America's Scariest Haunted House or that you have the Worlds Best 3D Haunt! I think you are familiar with those phrases. They are used to attract more customers. You wouldn't need to do that unless your haunt just isn't that good! Hmm... I know your haunt is amazing, just trying to make a point.

The fact is that the "Fear Factor" style attractions may in fact be very dangerous according to both the Michigan and Tennessee Department of Health. If someone got violently sick or even worse died because of what they must do to qualify for the money back challenge, It would be extremely detrimental to the entire industry.

Respectfully,
Howie

[MDKing]

What is it that you're supposed to eat in this challenge?


Allan

[Deathwing]

Probably bugs or raw fish, common on Fear Factor.

Jake