Money Back Haunt LLC. (BS scheme or good marketing?)

[wickedfarmer]

Welcome aboard Haunt

Got to admit I respect your non timid -jump in with both feet on your first post. BUT...as a long time listener I think you know we will chew on anything like ravenous dogs...and nip at it waiting for it to bite back. We do not just let things go...kind of a pack thing. You hint at the reason in your first post...we have by deafault a weird reputation with part of society. And bad things in the industry wheter we like it or not affect all of us. I was asked to go on local news last fall several times because of a person calling 911 in a corn maze 600 miles from my maze.

So if something doesn't pass the sniff test; it gets tore apart here. Now; I think it is safe to say the 'business' is not a "scam". However; I still hope it fades away as I have to believe that the VAST MAJORITY of customers who respond by coming to a haunt from the wording "money back haunt" are under false impression we all know it gives them. That false impression being along the lines "This haunt must be bad ass and worth my money...not a lame place with kids saying boo" Then when they get there...they find that is NOT the case. It is a separate additional fee the customer pays to take the challenge...NOT the haunt at all. It is the bait and switch; false misleading "marketing plan" inside the haunt industry that I detest.

Wicked Farmer

[Haunted Castle]

http://www.hustonville.com/panicroom.html

http://www.hustonville.com/panicroom.html

[Haunted Castle]

Haunted Castle

we have done a Money Back deal for the last 8-10 years started with Fear Factor and while its not for everyone it does bring in a crowd, for everyone that comes to try it they will have 8-10 friends who want to watch. No Scam just eat worms drink clabbered milk and lay in a casket with rats, spiders and snakes, try to cater to all the basic fears. If they do go through they get their money back and bragging rights that they made it. We do have app 10 major colleges within a 60 mile radus of our haunt and the college kids love it. Just another side show and draw. And in this economy it's just another way to draw a crowd, Differant strokes for differant folks, first I have heard about someone saying they have rights to it as we were the first to try this in the manner we do it.

[Haunt]

Apparently, I can't have a grown-up conversation with Cookie Cutter. But no, I'm not their new screen name. Sorry you're so bitter, but I stand by what I said. In fact, you just proved what I said. But now that I have an account, anyone is welcome to talk with me anytime! My name is Richard and my home is in Tampa, FL. Go Bucs! I won't hide behind a screen name like others.

Hey look money back haunts made a new screen name and is using it to defend himself.

[Haunt]

Ya know those people who call in to radio shows and say, "First time. Long time." That's me! I've followed the industry for several years now and LOVE it. So first off, congrats to all of you (especially Larry and Shane) who have made it so great! With that said, this topic is the first time I've ever actually made an account. You people all sound like a bunch of bitter children crying over who gets to go down the slide first. Especially Slobber Erlich, Robert Dudziech and “Cookie Crumbler” Wow. Bitter:Table for 3. From what I can tell, MBH made a product (that seems to work), got a Trademark for it and then said "If you want to use our name and knowledge, pay us a fee." What the heck is wrong with that? How is that different than any other business in America? If I want to open a McDonald's, I pay their fee. If I want to open a Burger King, I pay their fee. If I want to open a Walgreen's, I pay their fee. I don't have to use their names, it's my choice. And I gotta be blunt here, do you really think they went public without the ability to defend it? Whoever the person was that said something to the effect of, "If I want to do, I'm going to. And I'm not going to pay you" is just childish. What is this 2nd grade? Grow a pair kid. Would you say that to McDonald's or Burger King? Of course not. Just because someone thought of something you didn't, found a way to adapt something to work that has failed in the past or had the common sense to protect their investment, doesn't mean they should be vilified for it. For years I've seen Haunt owners (or just industry lovers like me) be stereotyped into some kind of freakish-devil worshiping, animal sacrificing demonic influence when we really aren't. People who create these stereotypes about us have closed minds to things they don't understand so they just attack it. That's common in humans, you attack what you don't understand. (Me included) How many of you people have actually talked with the MBH owner to see what they really are doing? Sure, you may THINK you know, or you may have bits and pieces of information from, "I heard that..." or "Someone said that..." (like I did) but c'mon people, do your own research. Now, before you people jump down my throat for supporting Capitalism, just do what I did yesterday and actually communicate with the owner. When I first saw this subject on the boards, I thought, "SCAM". Why? Because scams have been done in the past and I'm conditioned to think that way. After actually communicating with MBH owner, I found out he's an haunted attraction owner who has used this in his own attraction. What they do is actually pretty cool. From what I can tell, the owner has even gone out of their way to answer every question/accusation that the vultures have lobbed at them on this board and the answers actually make sense. It seems to me like the people who keep whining are the ones who are just jealous or ignorant. Again, people attack what they don't understand. Look, you can be mad at me for my post (and I'm sure some of you are) but the bottom line is: Find out the facts from the owner ON YOUR OWN and if you don't like it, don't do business with them, if you do like it, then do business with them. Either way, make your decision and move on. Quit acting like a bunch of babies.

[MoneyBackHaunts.com]

Cookie, A trademark is simply an associative Name or Words reserved to identify a brand, and protected by the US Gov't. It's crucial to the business world and protects intellectual property for the original claim filed. Just like the Music Industry, Restaurants, and countless other businesses have in place, to prevent knockoffs. It's the circle R you see in everyday life, and protected by the USPTO. But the Trademarks (The Ability to call yourself a "Money Back" anything in the Haunt Industry) is only a part of what my License provides.

[Cookie Crumbler]

How can you own an urban legend by filing a trademark?

[MoneyBackHaunts.com]

Ya got me with the shirts! haha. If I make that haunt $20k off my idea for $5k, isn't it worth it?

Of course I want the business, from Haunts that are a good fit for the License - only. I want to see my idea flourish with other Haunts, as I've seen at my place. Again, this is my baby I developed and implemented at my own Haunt and have seen customers have great fun with it. And yes, I have chosen to NOT License some haunts who applied, because I don't feel it would necessarily be a good fit. I won't put my License on someone in a market, who I don't feel can do it justice - which will ultimately protect all Licensees and my License.

Going back to - this will work, IF you have a good product already within your haunts. YES, THIS IS NOT A WAY TO HAVE A BAD HAUNT AND GET RICH!! AT ALL. AND IT IS NOT A GOOD SOLUTION FOR ALL HAUNTED HOUSES. You must have a good product or aspirations of such already in place. My License will get the customers to come, and the Money Back Attraction will deliver what is promised. But if your Haunts themselves are terrible - then nothing can help you and like anything else, your terrible haunt experience will spread. I have seen the Money Back Haunt License bring the numbers, and I have return customers because my Attraction delivers an entire entertainment experience - not JUST a Money Back Attraction. But I personally get ALOT of people visit me because I convinced them to come to me because I AM THE MONEY BACK HAUNTED HOUSE. This industry is all about you selling tickets and providing great entertainment!

But my job as a Licensor is to allow Haunt owners to see what I offer is WORTH the License fees and MORE. And I certainly believe they will after year 1. But if not, they can walk away entirely. If I make Haunts money in other markets with my idea, then they will want to license with me. Simple Numbers. But I want the testimonials of my Licensees after this year to be the deciding factor.

[trahancj]

Is it really your intention to help and support the haunt community or make 5k the first year, 10k the following off as many haunted houses as you can through a trademark. Let's not get the two confused. The lime-green shirts give you away

[MoneyBackHaunts.com]

Howie, I believe you when you say that you at some point did a Money Back Haunted House of some sort. And like anyone who was in the industry before me, I thank you for bringing the industry as a whole, where it is today. But not only did I not steal your idea, I wasn't even aware of your operation in Michigan. I saw an opportunity to capitalize on an existing mythical creation of enormous proportions in TN and then developed a system so My Haunt is now the place EVERYONE wants to see! I capitalized on an already-existing opportunity. And I give my customers ENTERTAINMENT that they want. That's what they're paying us for anyway! But for that rant, please see earlier posts

Again, I don't even know what you did nor was I even IN the industry in the year 2000. If you would like to discuss the differences, if it will make you feel better, I'm ok with that, to prove I didn't steal your idea, of which I hold Trademark Rights and Utility Patent-Pending Business Method Protection on the actual separate attraction itself. Again, I'm a nice guy and want to clear up any confusion so just email me at Chris[MENTION=21092]MoneyBackHaunts.com[/MENTION].

Again, I want this to be highly beneficial for Haunts in other markets, just like it has been for me. Because it will accomplish great things for other haunts - I want it to! It's my baby and you're not competing with me within my market, so I want to see it succeed at its highest potential.

Anyway, The personal attacks and your wishes of failure are not needed Howie, but the thoughtful dialogue is certainly appreciated.

[Howie Slobber Erlich]

One thing I can tell you for sure is that anyone who has ever made a penny from a money back haunt owes me and my ex business partner a big thanks. I would be glad to see any information on any other money back haunts before the 2000 season. Any haunt owner in Michigan knows who started the trend and created the first and most successful one. May I remind you also, that you do not have any patent yet and it is still in a pending state. I see no reason to continue to argue this fact with you on this forum. I have no reason to be jealous of you or anything you have ever done. I have been in the business for 26 years now and have forgotten more about haunting than you have ever learned and my reputation speaks for itself. You have not created a better idea, just stolen the ideas that others worked hard to perfect.

I will however restate that I will be happy to explain this concept to anyone who wants more info on how it works and how to promote it for free. There are at least 17 haunts that I can find right now in the nation offering some type of money back offer. So while wasting time suing everyone or threatening to, I am sure this venture will never take off and there haunt will suffer as a result as well.

Anybody considering purchasing into this "NEW IDEA" should demand to see an audited financial discloser showing proof that his numbers went up all three years he ran this promotion.

Howie

[MoneyBackHaunts.com]

Haha! Thanks! We had alot of offers to buy those shirts! We respectully declined however

In the end, it will either make money for my Licensees or it won't. I wholeheartedly believe it will because of what I've seen at my place! As you might know, I don't want a contract for year 1 at all. I want people to see it for themselves, working at their place, and then they can make the decision if they want to continue after that or not. I know they will see the benefits after year 1. I want their testimonials to be the end-all to the discussion though - whether it be good or bad, I think based off my personal experience with the idea, it will be good

If this License can help 1 person in the long run with their Haunt, then that will make me happy that I offered it Nationwide. Because it has already allowed me to become a VERY successful Attraction in my area - with my customers loving my entire experience. I want that for others, because my Licensing fees BETTER be alot less than the Financial return they see with this Entire Offering, because if the Haunt Owners themselves don't see a HUGE benefit, then no one will want the License. I understand that fully. The fees are set-up in such a way that they are constant and regardless of how successful this becomes, my rate will remain the same out of fairness whether your haunt currently grosses $100,000,$500,000, or $1,000,000. My service is the same, and worth the Licensing Fees I've set up. And I look forward to seeing how it goes over this season in multiple markets! I know it will again be successful in mine.

[Dark Attraction]

"Scam"

When you take an old haunted house idea and repackage it and charge people thousands of dollars for a license, it is hard to view it as anything other than a scam.

I think the real money back challenge is is going to be when the people (if any?) who forked over a license fee realize how foolish they are and try to get a refund!

Love the green silk shirts though!

-"Dark Attraction"

[MoneyBackHaunts.com]

Slain, I understand your view. If you are currently at max capacity (which is great!), then the idea isn't for you. Because it will certainly draw more people. But remember, it gives your customers another reason to spend more money for more entertainment too, so the revenue generation is also there. I know it's a new idea and is tough for people to fully understand without actually seeing it in action. I was skeptical when I started it 3 years ago also, and I created it! That's why I waited 3 years to 1. See if it worked and developed REPEAT customers, 2. See what the long-term marketing advantage would be and 3. Take the time, effort and expense to protect it properly, so I can help other haunts in other markets. And when the 2012 season wraps up, it will either work nationwide for my Licensees or it won't. I have some large markets who will be using it. I think it will, bc I've seen its success firsthand, but everyone is entitled to their opinion and I appreciate the thoughtful dialogue.

Howie, I respectfully have no idea what you're talking about. I was in high school in 2000 and had no idea about what you did or didn't do at your haunted house 1500 miles away. I will defend my Intellectual Property though, I guarantee it, and so will the USPTO. And I will CERTAINLY not pay anyone who has ever invented a chair, just because I came up with a better chair 12 years later. You're very argument basis makes no legal sense. You can't oppose a Registered Trademark, that's what the publication period is for, but I won't give you a legal lesson either. Please consult a licensed attorney privy to Trademark Litigation. I have a Nashville retainer who specializes in Copyright, Patent, and Trademark Law. Intellectual Property Rights in Music City, USA is a big deal anyway. I rightfully own the Trademarks and am very proud of what I'll be offering to Haunts this season. And when the 2012 season wraps up, it will either work nationwide or it won't. And from what I can tell, the Money Back experience you did, is nothing like I've created. So really, I have no idea where you're coming from and don't understand the hatred for my service, other than jealousy.

But Howie I will say this, I have legal rights to sue ANYONE that calls themself a "Money Back Haunt", "Money Back Haunted House", or "Money Back"- anything, within the Haunted Attraction Industry. And I have a fund set aside to make examples out of people who try to steal the Intellectual Property that I took the time and expense to protect. I'm not a bad guy, in fact, many on this forum can vouch for me as I've done prop trades and purchases for my haunt, but I am a businessman first and will defend my property against theft. This will work for haunts and will help lots of people. I WILL NOT let people, who are trying to steal it, against the law, damage my Licensees and their businesses. So within that "packet" you send out, you might AT LEAST want to advise people to not use my trademarks in any way. Or I assure you, they will regret it come October. I will protect MY idea, and those that are Licensing with me, I believe, will be very happy they did.

I'm a Haunted House owner who has a great system that has worked for me, I've protected it properly, and now am sharing it with other markets. Because it will be beneficial to people. It's not for everyone, but it does appeal to most.

[Howie Slobber Erlich]

I would love to know how you keep calling this a new idea? I wont call it a scam because I know exactly what you are doing and how you are doing it since I already did in 2000, 2001 and a variation of it in 2010. All with great success. As I have already stated my lawyer is submitting all the information needed to appose your Trademarks. Not because I want to run this type of haunt again or want to sell the idea to other haunts. I could have done that years ago. In fact, this is my last year in the business do to health issues. But, because I was the first one with enough courage to try this idea. Many bashed me for it over the years and called me a sell out. The fact is, it was a great marketing tool when we did it. We offered a great haunt experience along with a chance to get your money back. We tripled our numbers and everyone had a great time. Of course in 2001 after seeing our huge success, several other haunts around the nation and in our own state tried doing the same thing or a slight variation. None of them ever reached the same reputation, numbers or national media as we did. And most of those were a scam and cheating their customers just to try and make a buck!

It is just amazing to me that you are claiming this idea as your own. We promoted the haunt as the rumored haunt that everyone had always heard about. We promoted that there was a challenge involved in order to get your money back, we provided proof that many were receiving their money back with a wall of fame that had their pictures on it. All the same things you are doing 9 years after we did it first.

I am willing to explain to any haunt owner who wants to know how to market this idea exactly how to do it for free! I am not afraid of being sued since I have the conceptual rights on this idea to begin with. I will warn anyone who thinks this is a great idea that will make money forever that they are wrong. It may help increase numbers for a couple of years and then the novelty will wear off and your numbers will start to return to normal. If you are only interested in making money short term then go for it. But you better put on one hell of a show or expect to ruin your reputation quickly!

Howie "Slobber" Erlich
Slobber Entertainment, LLC.