Vegas a bust?

[Motograter]

Shane, I know what your talking about..Our very first year we bought items from Halloween USA stores and Wal-mart. It's all we could afford, but we made it work. Now we look back at all that and just laugh. I believe most of that stuff ended up in the dumpster and I must say it helped us build our way up. Now we are buying from TW vendors or making the props on our own because we are learning the tricks of the trade.

[Boo Crew Production]

All I want to say on this mater is, Why has Rubies dumped transworld? Think about it.

Is it because Transworld Exhibits doesn't do what they say? Is it because they don't promote it like they should?Is it because they drop the ball when it is in their court?

I say, lets make the haunt industry show a show that is run by haunters not an outside entity. Why should we give our funds to a company that cannot or will not listen to what the industry needs as a whole.

Lets get real here, the haunt industry isn't all that big. Why does it need all these major shows? Is it because everyone wants a piece of the pie? Does it go to build someones ego?

The more shows that are out there the more the cost of haunting rises. Why?
Well from a vendors aspect they have to throw between 5 and 10 thousand dollars at each show, who do you think eats that cost? The buyers of coarse.
From a buyers aspect, buyers have to pay to attend all these shows, time off work (cause most of us have real jobs), travel expense, hotel, and food, and lets not forget pay the jacked up prices for props because the vendors have to cover their expenses.

Example:
For my company to attend 6 shows and shuck out 5000 per show that would be like adding a full time employee getting paid 15 bucks and hour for a year to sit on his duff and do nothing.

Another example:
say a company builds 200 props a year, to attend 6 shows would add at least $150.00 per prop.

Things to ponder.

[drfrightner]

Kevin,

You are wrong about your statement... Rubies bailing on Transworld has nothing to do with moving out of Chicago. In fact, the retail vendors wanted the show to move out of Chicago, not stay there.

Everyone was sick of the weather, the unions, and the high costs.

The show was moved to Vegas in part because it needed to move.

When the Houston show started they cited WEATHER as one of the MAJOR reasons why they should attend that show over Transworld.

Look at it this way as well... Transworld announced last year they would move back to Chicago then changed their minds and stayed in Vegas. Vegas was a better option for them to compete with Houston.

I have been attending this show for over 15 years more than almost anyone I know in this whole entire industry. My first show was 1994. I have been to them all and I know all or most of the major retail vendors.

So you can all assume to know what the problems are but most of what you guys are saying is wrong.

The main reason for Rubies leaving was over money, the felt Transworld made to much money. Rubies and many other vendors wanted massive changes and when that didn't happen they parted ways. I can tell you from everything I know it wasn't over the city.

In fact last last year when Transworld announced they where going back to Chicago every single RETAIL vendor I talked to said NO FREAKIN WAY are we going to Chicago in January. Transworld finally backed off and went back to Vegas.

Bottom line is CHICAGO SUCKS for conventions especially in the winter...its expensive, its cold, its heavy union.

Bottom line is most of you are being thoughtless especially you SHANE... you are not a haunt vendor you are not paying the drayage bills, the high costs of booth space.

This isn't about you SHANE... this is about what is best for EVERYONE especially the vendors. Lowering costs is something this industry cries for you want cheap animations, you want discounts, you complain about hotels, food, you complain about almost everything.

Seriously!

There is no perfect situation just the best option to meet the mass majority of needs.

This industry is so damn backwards because its like leaderless, no central group speaking for the industry, to show clear directions. Hopefully this is where HHA comes in...

The members voices their opinions, membership is polled, and a single group can speak for eveyone. On person or a couple people who just like to post over and over and over again do not speak for anyone but themselves.

The whole industry needs to be polled and this will happen I assure you.

HHA going forward should lead the charge on whateve our industry wants as a WHOLE not one person who cries every five seconds.

This industry is about hundreds of small business owners and operators. HHA will hopefully put them all into one group and find out what the industry wants.

That is what should happen but ONLY AFTER the show.

We have to find out how the show goes and go from there.

Larry

[drfrightner]

Ken,

You said the haunt industry isn't really all that big? What do you consider big? The haunt industry includes every single haunted house and Halloween attraction in the WORLD! How big do you think that is Ken?

I can tell you!

Over ONE BILLION DOLLARS was spent last year in the United States alone visiting Halloween attractions, meaning buying a ticket to an ATTRACTION! How much bigger do you want it to get?

Did you know that vendors in this industry some of them sell as much as 50% of their products overseas? Now you wouldn't know that because while you and others screw around at a Halloween retail show, or sitting here fighting about stuff other companies who are SERIOUS went to IAAPA and found new costumers. I've said before and will say again, IAAPA is a show that could be more benefical to your business than any of the shows or all shows combined. Its your choice to attend a horror convention, or a retail show or whatever because you let your passion get in the way of reality not mine.

Do you know how many haunted houses are being built all across the World? Do you know there is now over 300 amusement parks who do haunted houses? Do you know they don't built these things themselves they hire people do supply them. You are missing out because at a RETAIL SHOW there is NO ATTRACTION BUYERS! DUH! At a retail show there is no buyers for HIGH END $10,000 animations... DUH! They are RETAIL we are ATTRACTION!

Universal Studios all by themselves grosses well north of 50 million dollars. Netherworld did over 75,000 guests, why don't you tell them its not that big. Home haunters now are spending millions of dollars to build their haunts and some claim to attract over 5,000 people to see their displays a night. Why don't you tell them its not that big.

Haunted houses spend more money on advertisement, get more national and local PR than the retail industry... National Geographic, Travel Channel, HIstory Channel all did haunted house shows. Tell them its not that big anyway.

Dude keep comments like that in check, or I should say get some facts before you start making comments like that.

I think my point here is that Ken this industry is A LOT BIGGER THAN YOU THINK and it deserves its own tradeshow. PERIOD!

We are not lost lambs, we are the wolves chasing the lambs. Now these retail shows realize what roll we played with their attendance, eating up booth space and more.

Now we are gone and look what happened. Now I hear the Houston show is trying to talk to haunters to see if we'll attend their show next year when before they said they didn't want us.

Look how things change.

We don't need them! We will forge on on our own without their crap. If you want to see Batman costumes go to the show, if you want to see Halloween Attraction owners and operators you'll come to an ATTRACTION SHOW its how it should be!

Larry

[xxxdirk]

Larry, everyone, I think we all are going to have to just wait and see how big the convention will be in St Louis. Again, at the expense of repeating myself, we, as a viable convention are small beans in the scheme of things. I mean, 150 booth is nothing compared to the number of booths that TW is used to dealing with. How much does a booth at St Louis cost? $3000? Multiply that by 150 booths thats a little less than 500,000. How much does it cost TW to rent the building, pay for electric , advertising, and everything else, and I really wonder how much TW is going to make off this convention. Nope, my guess is TW will either combine the two conventions back together, or drop the haunt show because it's just not worth it.....

[mindtumor]

If there is one thing I have learned in life it is not everyone is going to agree with what you think no matter how much evidence you have to support your argument. The people who want the shows to combined aren't going to be convinced that they shouldn't be combined, the people who don't want the shows to be combined aren't going to be convinced that they should be combined, and not everyone is going to agree on a location for the show. Keep in mind not everyone's wants and needs are going to be the same and you are going to tend to form an opinion on this based upon your own needs. There is no sense in getting anyone's blood pressure elevated over it right now.

The haunt show is only 3 weeks away, or something like that, lets just let the show happen and see how it goes. Then afterwards once all the feedback and information is processed, we can start to make cases for change, or cases to remain the same, or cases for location.

[drfrightner]

Jared I agree with you 110%.

Ron, the show is set up for 280 booths but as of right now its not sold out. FYI... Fun Expo a show that has been going on for year is about that 280 booth show. The association that owns the show reportedly takes in a $280,000 profit for the association itself, and that is before the management company makes all their money and fees. Its probably a $500,000 profit for all parties involved and again its only a 280 booth show more or less.

There is money to be made that I assure you. However down the road I think Transworld should charge the buyers to attend the show.

We simply do need to just see how this goes and then figure it out from there... I hoping for a huge success. I do not think it will be all I hoped for because there are many more vendors out there we can go after and that is exactly what "WE" as an industry will have to do.

I think 2009 will only be the tip of the iceberg.

Larry

[Kevin Dells]

Lary,

Your very right i saying what you did.

But TW ending in Chciago was to me an ending freindship to very close freinds i had within the industry or at least the start of it. I as of last season actually retired from haunting after 8 seasons for two different haunts.

Not being an owner but one of the upper managment for both haunts i had the chance to meet vendors and learn their products, i ran make up departments learning the different types of materials was very important to my ordering.

I built all year long for both Rockford Screamfest in Illinois, and Woods of Terror in Greensboro N.C. So knowing different types of building materials (Oak island and such) was very important as i had to build knowing what was available and how it worked before a wall or nail ever went up.

It kicks my ass to walk away from this industry but family matters come first and thats what i did walked away,but i stay very connected to guys like xxxdirk who i actually help consult his haunt and even some of his purchases. Ron and I became very good freinds through TW/Knowledge for the Carnage and Screamfest.

I am very proud of my accomplishments, i would have never thought i would ever become so addicted to anything as haunting, i love all aspects of it except the drama of it.

As i said in the earlier post it sure would be nice if somebody could maybe put together say two conventions and thats it. It would save vendors a lot of money with two shows one west coast one east coast. But make each convention for everybody within the haunt and not just the owners. I stepped up because i was attending the shows TW to be exact. I was meeting people, learning about running a bussiness and even became a very valuable person to a lot of people within haunting because of what i was learning on the show floor,by watching the make up artists and learning their products, and meeting other owners and crews and talking with them.

It all breaks down to me like this when i sit back and think about it.

Randy Daniels found me at a local music festival, he invited me as a carpenter to Screamfest. I became an actor and then fell in love with the make up,building and then actor managment when i had to fill in for a kid one night... I found out i was a freak!

I attended TW with randy and a few others but year two we took everybody that had stepped up the year after. This was a blast! We meet so many people and leanred so much from them.

So why not just have two shows and offer stuff for owners, actors, make up artists and everybody of big value on the crew as we all help build and run our haunts. the owners may pay for everything but it's the crew that makes the haunt succsessful.

Larry if you ever decide to put a team together to help pull this off i would gladly take the responsibilty of arranging everything not owner related, you handle the booths and i would gladly call on the hundreds of freinds iv'e made over the years to put together the seminars for the crews to learn from.

I would definetly come out of retirment for that because i think it's a great cause and one that personally i think should be a big part of the convention. Make up seminars by somebody different every hour on the hour, distressing and costuming clinics, and acting seminars after acting seminars all weekend long. Do a group rate for the crews so they can afford it, make it cheap, get them on the show floor learning the materials, but most importantly getting haunt crews knowing each other because were all in the love of it together.

That i would think would change haunting more then any prop every invented!! And it all works in the favor of the owners!

[Mistress DeSade]

Thinking outside the box

Larry-I too would have to respectfully disagree that haunters/retailers have nothing in common. As several individuals pointed out, people start buying "scary" stuff somewhere-and it's generally from a retail store. This is (or should be) partly where our "new blood" comes from. And yes-as those retailers start halloween displays after school starts, our efforts to promote haunts begins to pay off.
In this economy -or really even in a booming economy-the smartest moves we can make is to find every single opportunity to leverage our investments in time/money/manpower.

Now-are we ever going to have the buying clout that wal-marts and others have with these big retailers? Doubtful...but there are many ways our position with them could be enhanced that aren't even being utilized. What do these retailers and haunt/attraction owners have in common? Easy-they have to make a profit. Do we all need to be under one roof? Perhaps not-but I believe our side IS losing something of value with the split-and I don't just mean buying at show prices (tho-jeez, have you ever had to run into a retail shop and buy ANYTHING cause a costume got trashed-or whatever? Yikes!).

I've been a home haunter...a pro haunter and a co-producer for a haunt convention-and IMHO, we will continue to see a morphing of the tradeshows because no one (yet) has unlocked the combination of profitability for the vendors and "value" for the attendees. And EVERY tradeshow thus far seems totally oblivious to the 800 pound gorilla in the corner which could not only boost the awareness of the haunt (and related) industries as a whole, but could also boost the profitability of both the vendors and the producers of the show.
I think ONE show a year would be fantastic for many reasons-but unfortunately I doubt that will happen as long as ego's dominate the way they have in the past-but it could be one heck of a media event! Most haunters attending these shows want 3 things. They want to learn, They want to socialize/network and they want to be able to buy at either less than retail, or something unique from retail. Vendors want to write orders and have exposure to new customers (and yes, socialize too-but it becomes hard to justify "networking" costs if you're not writing orders)

I feel we should be looking for ways to expand our circle (and thus potential profits) and not contract. As much as we LOVE what we do, the obvious has been stated before. If we don't make money at it, we're not going to get to play much. As a whole we are an INCREDIBLY creative group-but yet we don't apply that creativity in the business realm of our industry. Perhaps that's because artists are often poor business people. Perhaps it's because of the ego issue. I don't know. But I do know there's more than one way to skin a cat-

I'm looking forward to St. Louis. I plan on learning something, buying something(s) and socializing


Kathryn DeSautell

[xxxdirk]

Perhaps what TW should do is have a way to id those of us that have a sellers permit and a retail store. It is really not fair for someone from a home haunt or a haunt that has no store to be able to buy items at the same price I do. I have rent that I have to pay each month for my retail store etc. Any way, that way TW can have both groups at the convention, and if someone walks up and they dont have the wholesale buyer id, the booth can blow them off....

[Mistress DeSade]

That's closer to a more cost effective solution (buyer id, number, whatever)...but consider this:
Excluding the general public (which TW more or less keeps out anyway) a sale is a sale in the vendor's world. If a pro haunt owner goes to say Rubie's and orders 10,000 worth of costumes and a retail shop owner comes in and orders 10,000 worth of costumes, who's the "better" customer?

Most vendor's already impose a minimum order that precludes home haunters, etc from buying. Now if you were going to allow the general public in it wouldn't be that difficult to impose a "buyers premium" (i.e. retail markup) on those without id. And it doesn't really sabotage the retailers of those products because the buying "window" is so short. It COULD get people thinking/planning a lot sooner.



Kathryn DeSautell

[xxxdirk]

To play devils advocate Kathyrn, yest it does make a difference. I would much more prefer to see the people at the convention come and support MY store. LOL Seriously though, yeah, if the vendors sell at retail price, to the people at the convention that do not have a retail sales permit, that would be fine. However, don't expect me to feel any sympathy to those with no sellers permit, or retail store that complain when they want to buy stuff at wholesale prices.

[princeofdarkness]

Transword facts - long post

First say letting me thanks for letting join the board. I have visited Hauntworld board many times but this is the first time I've posted something here. I have been in the film business and Fx business for over 25 years as an agent.
I have done haunted house consulting, collector consulting and buying, selling, promoting and marketing for over 20 years. Theres not to many people I dont know in this business. Either in film, fx, haunted houses, amusement parks, artist or private collectors. So I've delt with them all. As far as vendors most all of the big names, I know very very well. I hooked Lafond (Louis) into the playboy halloween party. Ive hooked collectors to Scarefactory and Unit 70 with Bo. I have know Distortions (Ed & Marsha) for years. And not to leave out the Morris people, Phil, Scott and Jim. And Don Post, who started the whole thing.
Point being, polls, and opinions are good feedback for Transworld, if they will listen, and you can have an open mind. I've been to Transworld the very first year it started, and since it was in my back yard of Chicago it was only a skip and jump. I know the Transworld people well, and I have voiced my opinion several times, and warned them of what they were facing if a change wasn't made.
CHANGE seems to be the key word in 2009, for everyone. Not only in the Halloween/Haunting business, but in the country & world.

Transworld is a Trade show. Not for people who just want a fast amusement by looking at all the cool stuff. But business and to make money and its everyone not just a group. Like a Haunter or Costume people. EVERYONE! But to solve Transworlds problems, and if your going to "VOTE" or voice an opinion, you have to know the facts. You also have to be reasonable. Dont get mad, but I look at the poll and laugh. Why because 1/2 if not most of those choices will not work.
Being in Law, we are tought to only explore facts, not opinions, or hear-say. Transworld was once a great show, over years and years it has slimmed, booths have gotten smaller, due to high prices and cost has went up. Not to mention the cost that a vendor has to dish out. One must remember this is a "TRADE" show. 98% of all vendors will base thier season on this show. If they dont sell, then they have lost thier season.
So it is much more than "pipe dreamerstuff. I'm not saying anyone here, or any one person, but in reallity there are alot of them. Again I stress this is a "TRADE" show. It was never ment to be anything else. So if your comparing it to a "CHILLER", "FEARFEST", "HAUNT CON" really its not. Not even close. Its based on companies selling thier product to stores (wholesale) for retail sale. Not to the public. There are no stars that do these shows. Thats not what its about. Yes a few have popped up both as buyers, lookers, and some even had a table to sign a few pictures.
I remember when Universal had a booth, and Ron Chaney signed Pictures. Bela Jr. Had a booth and signed pictures. There where mini haunted houses you could walk through, and Morris and Distortions took up a "football" field of space with flying UFO's, and giant spiders hanging from the rafters. Animatronics filled the floor and the Scarefactory was just beginning to break ground. I have seen alot of companies drop out. Some because they made no monay at the show. Table prices have increased over the years. Or they just couldn't compete with people shipping thier stuff overseas, to save money. Then again you get what you pay for. I for one am NOT a supporter of overseas crap.
Problem with Transworld is thier fighting a 3 Headed Dragon. Not to mention a few other kinks caused by some vendors. (Costume Vendors).
When you think of were Transworld should be, you have to think about several things. Larry said it best "cost". But theres more to it.
Maybe this will help people know whats all involved, then come up with a plan.

1. Cost (Cost consist of not only the vendor as far as table price, travel, and expense. Not to mention bring product to the show. But also the buyers. Travel, Hotel, Food.) This can be solved if you DO YOUR HOMEWORK to SOME DEGREE But not all

2. Transworld cant be split or it wont work. Not money wise for everyone, and it will never pass sorry. The Costume show already is headed back to Chicago in 2010, and if not for the lease in St.L the Haunt show would have followed, so it be 2011 if they join again. Thats up to the VOICE of the People, Vendors alike. Not just one person or who ever but everyone, and it be a majority that will make that decision. Welcome to America. Thats the way it should be. You live with it, no matter what and support it. If you dont like it, dont go, simple, freedom of choice, but in the long run it will only hurt you, and make you look like you just a brat who couldn't have thier way. You gota support the majority, we do it in life everyday, sometimes we dont like it, but we live with it. Sometimes you got work with someone you dont like. But again its America and YOUR CHOICE! Joe and Ron already are on top of things and will be watching St.L very carefully. It be a good show, but it wont have the numbers. There is way too much money lost splitting the shows. When you think of Venue, you have to pick a spot that will hold both shows. Let break down everyones ideas. Sure everyone wants it to be in thier own backyard, but you have to look at the whole picture. You have to be reasonable.

WEST COAST

LA/SD/SEATTLE are way to far for anyone to travel. Yes I know California people are Booing me. But, The vendors would spend a kings ransome getting thier stuff there. Esp the "BIG" vendors with large props, animatronics ect. All of those cities are very expensive and no major vendor is going to spend BIG bucks on bringing all of thier stuff out thier. Sure its great for film people, West coast dwellers, and the weather is great. But COST over sees all of that. Sorry No LA No West Coast.
LV Las Vegas might as well be LA thier only 4 hours from each other. Las Vegas doesn't work other than hey its "Vegas Baby". Thats why it doesn't work. For one its too spread out. Two, Vegas is an Adult playground. Its fun but not if your life depends on sales at a Halloween Convention or Trade show. To many distractions.
"All work and no play make jack a dull boy". Not to mention, its still far, and expensive. And Jan/Feb can not be booked in Vegas. I'll get to time slots later. Other than weather and its fun town, it has nothing in its favor. Last year was not a great year for vendors in Vegas, compared to Chicago and did no one any favors except for West Coast vendors. Sales did not pop, like they were hopeing for. Again too many distractions. Transworld probably will enver go back to Vegas, if they do, good luck. Dont put any money on it.

MOUNTAIN SIDE
Pheniox - Still to far away. The problem here is the Venue cant hold both shows...The weather good but doesn't do TW any justice.
Denver - Denver would never work, although Lafond, and Distortions would jump for joy.
Yeah it be cool thing, problem with Denver is not only distance, but Weather.

Texas - Now where at a spot that might make sence. Although I wouldn't promote Houston. I know HC was there once. Problem with Texas is it has to have a big enough Venue to hold both shows. Weather is good. Its Venue that might be an issue, along with whats there to do in Texas.

MIDWEST-

Indy is a good place but the convention center can hold both showes at once. There building another one, but as of now, you couldn't do a Transworld there. Weather also plays a factor.
Chicago - Well thats where it ll started, and might be where it all ends.
St.L - Larry on St.L, the issue is can it hold both shows, and the weather.
You can argue March, but then why not Chicago? I know its your back yard. You can argue we only need one show, well then I see why you support St.L. I dont because of the Venue size, Time Slot. I do think as a whole picture and everyone involved. Plus I support both shows togther, with even an add on. Plus I hate the Cardinals LOL JK ~L~

Kentucky and Ohio wont beable to do both shows at once, you must have a veune that can hold them both. They wont split again.

EAST COAST -

You can forget Boston its way to far, if you go to Boston might as well go to LA enjoy the weather.

NY is possible, but again your fighting weather. At least its in Rubies back yard.

Char NC - I'm sure Morris would vote for this one, but again its on the EAST coast its far shot for west coast people, even Midwest People.

SOUTH -

***Atlanta is possible, its closer than Orlando, the venue could hold both shows.
There plenty to do and of course thats Netherworlds back yard. Let alone good weather.

***Orlando is a good choice but cost of getting thier might be a factor. Inless you use priceline. Ticket there now is $35...LOL Is a good haul to Orlando, but not like LA or LV. The Venue could hold 10 Transworlds, and theres Universal and Disney.
The weather perfect in any month, and theres lots to do. Its also home to IAAPA show. Maybe Transworld could take a lesson or two from.

Thats Dragon Head number two.



CONT...

[princeofdarkness]

Transworld cont

Third Dragon is the vendors themselves. The vendors want Jan or Feb. Saying March is too late to get orders ready and out the door by Halloween. They need more time, meaning 30 to 60 days earlier (Jan/Feb)
The only two cities that would work for that time slot is Atlanta or Orlando. If you do March and Chicago or St.L then its too late for vendors. Inles Haunt vendors feel March is ok. Then your problem is solved. But there are alot of Haunt vendors saying thats too late also. You guys are preaching March but Vendors are preaching Feb, thats your own people talking, not only the costume people. Dont the Vendors have say so in when they would like to come and travel? JUST THINKING OF THEM and NOT Myself...Sorry
So its coming from your own people too. Ive talked to them all.
So once you know what cities can hold both Venues and taken out Cost. You can narrow it down.
Chicago, St.Louis(if they can hold both), Atlanta, Orlando

Next is time slots. This is the biggest problem of all. Jan/Feb in any city besides Atlanta or Orlando is dreadfull. One storm could wipe out a trip to TW. Do you trust weather in Chicago, St.L in Jan/Feb? March ok but then your looking at Product out the door for the season. Some big vendors need 3 months to do those big props and animatronics. ASK SF, Dist and Unit 70 what time frame is. Listen to yourself. Or do you want it rushed for fast buck. Any city could handle a show in March, but even March can get cold in the Middle that time of year.
Thats a big risk. That leaves -West but thats not the issue
So thats what your faceing. Thats where everyone is at a stalemate. How do you solve it. Go back to Chicago in Early March. Go to Orlando or Atlanta in Jan/Feb.


If you wanta add more problems. Its the costume people fighting the haunt people. Which is why its split this year, not to mention Vegas couldn't hold both venues at that time.
Haunted houses are a business just like a store. With a different venue. So why not sell wholesale to them. This where the fight began. I wont name costume vendors, but I'm sure you know who they are. Everyone needs to just get along. Its about the buyer, and "WE" put money in the vendors pocket. So stop fighting, and being stupid
and think of the customer, not oneself.


While I agree, TW should not let anybody into the show, it should deal with its customers, and keep order in all directions.
TW will rebound, but it needs leaders that will listen to everyone, and problem solve. Not be bullied by a few vendors or costume people.
By now, TW should have learned its really the Haunt people who make the show.

Think of planing like they do the "Superbowl". Or Nascar. They start in Feb where? Orlando. Then they work there way using the weather as guide to each city. Same with the Superbowl. Its in Feb so they must think warm city. But the Superbowl, is moved around every year. Moving it around wont work with many people, and vendors alike. Its a known fact, people dont like thinking about things. They dont like change, at least not this kind of change.
Theres enough stress when the show comes around and preparing for it, on both ends, but vendors have more of the burden, and alot riding on the show. To add trying to figure out when and where each year would not go over well with vendors or buyers. Not me anyway.
When they plan that, they also think, can the city hold a Superbowl? Well TW no Superbowl, but you have to think on that kind of level when your talking in Time, weather, people, cost ect. Its not rocket science, just planning, communication, and the right people running it.
The other factor is, buyers. This is not an amusement show. Yes we all love to see those big dragons and wild animatronics. But these people are not there to amuse. They are there to make money and for business. So I tend to side with vendors on people just pipe dreaming, or coming to be amused. TW has let a few slip in the door that have no business being there.
Also TW is still the bar. Yes you can try to do shows, but lets face it, marketing cost big bucks. Something TW does have. They also bring in the giants, like SF, DIST, Unit 70, Morris, and few others. Its hard to jump from the NFL and play in CFL or play in the NBA then go over seas and play. Thats what vendors look at. And can a small show bring in buyers that spend that kind of cash.
Its easier said then done people. Every show has its own thing, but dont mix apples and oranges but remember still all fruit. As far as putting one show against the other, as Larry said its retarded. Support! Splitting up is not the answer. Doing another show is not the answer. Houston is not the answer. Going on ones own is not the answer, and you will have a hard time convincing BIG vendors that. There use to old school, if you get my drift. And if you fail or a new show doesn't produce for them your crediblity is shot for life.
Meaning "IF" I say "IF" you get the Big boys to your own haunt show, or whatever show, and they have bad sales or a bad experience, you will never get them back. Lets be honest here, people dont like new things. People tend to be scared of change or something else. I think its better to put that show back togther, add more things, get new people in there that can run it, hear the people, the haunters, the vendors and solve this, no matter where its at. Lets get on with it. People are fast to judge, but you have to know all facts.

ITS ALL ABOUT $$$ and BUSINESS. Thats what I look at MONEY! I do it for a living and I look at the bigger picture. In BUSINESS you look with your wallet not your heart. Thats what the city looks at, and the convention. Further, alot of small vendors depend on the costume part. People like Prop Masters ect. They have small one or two booths. Great product, and perfect for a home haunt or haunted house.
But they dont need, nor want the distraction of some BIG vendor with BIG Animatronics.

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[princeofdarkness]

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Even in the same venue. It distracts, takes away. There trying to make money. This is a proven fact, remember FACTS! They have tried being up-stairs and made double the amount of sales down stairs the following year. Vocal point. If we had a Chevy we were selling next to a Ferrari, we couldn't sell it. People wanta see the Ferrari,
touch it, stand by it, sit in it, take pictures with it, even if they cant afford it. While your Chevy sits there, and people say "Yeah" "Nice". "Oh look at that Red Ferrari. Where as in an AUTO MALL you could sell that Chevy. Two different locations. Anyway you get the idea, same principal anyway.
The show needs to come togther again. It wont happen in 2010, but I bet my last dollar it will in the following years.

#2) I agree, we dont need a Rubies, California costume, or Cinn Secrets, but we do need costume people and costume vendors. Really we need them all and need everyone to work as a team without one voice of a Vendor.
Did they shoot themselves in the "ASS" when they went to Houston. Yep they did. But that fight is worse than ours. Because you have two SETS of costume people going to two showes. The Rubies followers, and the rest. In the long run, they will suffer the most. We dont have two Haunt shows divided.

#3) "WE ARE HALLOWEEN!!! What I'm saying is that there needs to be a seperation of RETAIL and HAUNTS"...
Thats false statement! WE are not. Yes there are lots of Haunted Houses, some that work, some that fail, and some who only care about making a fast buck for 31 days.
BUT WE ARE NOT HALLOWEEN! The KIDS make Halloween! I'll bet you a million dollars right now more money goes into candy, and costumes, than Haunted Houses. So to think that is stupid! I agree retail is one thing, haunts are another, so are the mask collectors and the private
prop and animatronic & mask collectors. OH yeah they are there. I know. Some spend more money on the Animatronics to collect for personal than any haunted house could ever budget, so dont think there not important. They also support people like Morris, Don Post, Prop Master and I can name alot lot more...You can seperate them, but not into two shows.

#4) If anything, the show should work to improve itself. Maybe add a third section, geared like a Chiller, or Haunt Fest/Scream Fest, with stars, film stuff ect ect. To add to the pot. This draws in the hobbiest also, and again adds more money and people. You have think BIGGER, NOT SMALLER. Even wo costume people, there needs to be something added, to help the small vendors.
Maybe even have one company do a "HAUNTED HOUSE" at the show. God knows you could do one up in a convention hall. Maybe every year bring in a Haunted house or two. If you really want to think big, do a Haunt wars, where you have 5 Haunted Houses there completeing from prize or something, in those lines.
"NOT BAD"!

#5) "So what does the weather have to do with it one damn thing."
It has alot to do with it. Most people have voiced that opinion no matter what you might think. But again you have to look at the whole picture not just what you want to do, or want. People Hate COLD! Alot of people walk to places, alot of people smoke, alot of people are driving and dont want to risk it.
BUT, more important is the vendors who drive thier stuff. Jan/FEB is dreadfull!
Which is why the costume show is NOT in Chicago, or wasn't. Had it been not an issue it would have been in Jan in Chicago.
The most important thing is risk. $$$. This where you need a hafe brain. You cant risk Jan/Feb in Chicago, Indy or St.L Bah Bah if the roads where clear, this happened that happened. It only take a good storm to wipe out someones season! Had it been in Boston 2 weeks ago, the season was done!
Vendors dont want that risk. Small turn out, cancelled flights, bad weather, whatever. YOU DONT PAY THERE BILLS, THEY DO! So there 100% correct in saying inless its in a warm city, NO JAN/FEB!

#6) March again is very very touchy for vendors to complete thier orders. SF stops Orders in JUNE! Thats gives you 2 months. Get it!

#7) Maybe its a control issue. Who wants to run the show and be the big cheese. Could be. Even here!
One of these two shows Houston/Transworld is going under for sure... after this mess with both shows having little to no attendance one is going down. If Transworld show survives great, if not doesn't matter. It matters

"We have our own show one where the vendors can save money on booth costs, hotels, food and travel." Thats false statement, reminds me of some politician trying to make another party, look bad. SORRY! Im a business man and not buying that!
While I might agree on the booth cost, there no difference is travel cost. If people where smart, heres a tip. They just use price line for all travel. I always use them. I booked my car for $12 a day on PL. My Hotel for $35, not some cheesey one.
My Fight to LA for $120 to the show in Burbank in May. The St.L show Im driving from Indy because Im attending another show before the Haunt show. Cost me $80 on PL from Canada to Indy. So to say its cheaper travel ect ect thats Hog wash. Why pay high price for your convention Hotel. I see it for Chillers, Haunt Cons, Fear Fest, Even TW. Last year in Vegas $89 TW special. I stayed at Hooters for $21. My convertable was $14 a day. Its all a bunch BS. Do your homework! Before you do a convention special. Food, well it depends on the city.

"Haunted house owners also want better deals, more products developed, then you need your vendors to realize some saving as well." Remember the vendors are at risk the most not BUYERS! Thats just a bad plea, for vendor support. You think another show will improve that. No Way. If anything it will drive up the price for vendor because the traffic isn't there. Again there are more than just Haunted House people in this world that buy both! Sorry Just Fact!

"Lets not be selfish because we want to look at some Halloween stuff." Dont think so, its not about Halloween stuff, it all goes into one pot. If you read my other part of the post that would be understood. Nothing personal. Again there are alot and I can pop numbers if you like me to go there, that do buy both. Or cant afford something BIG from Big Vendors. There are the small prop makers, and mask people who do stuff for yard haunt people, and low budget haunted houses. Are they to suffer also? Think about that!
Whats next kick them out because they dont make Giant animatronics and high budget stuff. Sound like some congress guy who likens to the rich and hell with the small no name haunters. But the no name haunters depend on small vendor and depend on costume people. Maybe not Rubies or whoever but the other small vendors who are in the costume section!

"Do we really want to be in the middle of this turmoil or just wrap your fingers around your own show? Think about it!" No we dont want the turmoil, but we cant depend on risk and change either just because one person or a few think one dementional. You got think of everyone involved! No "I" in Team. To ad, show here, show there, show everywhere. ITS BULLSHIT! I can get a list of 2000 people that will agree in this business, that two many shows hurts the business. NO ONE wants to travel 6 times a damn year. No one wants to go to this show, that show, this show all because of Selfish idiots that cant come to an agreement, or thier pride to big, or they want to control it. ITS BS! People already get confused on all damn shows there are, now this. WHY! STUPID! If anything combine a few more, work togther and as a team. Lower prices for Haunt vendors, keep retail retail and Haunt stuff haunt stuff add this add that. But splitting it up.NO WAY! House divided WILL FALL! And another show will not solve it, trust me. Yes I agree Houston/TW is another thing thats thier thing so what we lose Rubies do you care..NO Haunt Vendors make up twice what Rubies will BUT
Not every costume, small vendor in that venue has to suffer. So split NO
I'm not buying it counselor.

Awards is a great thing! I suggested Mini Haunted House Wars...Theres alot of improvement if people would take a step back. Stop trying to judge, and control, listen to everyone.
Nothing Personal, but Im sure if the Darkness was in Chicago you be on that. So dont say St.L is the answer.
Doesn't matter where its at, as long as it can hold venue, time slot is RIGHT for EVERYONE, and people enjoy themselves and businesses make money. THATS WHAT ITS ABOUT!

Transworld has a long long way to go, before it solves its problems. But its a team effort, and it takes everyone. Its like a strike, it not only hurts the company, it hurts the employees and most of all the public.
To recap it all, you must remember the FACTS. You have to have a venue that WILL FIT both shows of that size. Like it or not both must be included to do well on the business side of it all. Small vendors need the costume part of the show. For 1 there way to small to sit next to a vendor displaying 12 foot dragons or giant UFO's. In the business sense, which is what I look at, you would be washed out by those vendors. Distractions and people who be more intrested in watching the Dragon fly, where, maybe small Haunted house or retail store might buy your product on the costume floor. This true, believe it or not. Many small vendors rather be out of the hipe. Lets face it, you wouldn't sell a Chevy next to a Ferrari dealer. And most small vendors selling mask, or props or small animatronics have a better shot at business on the costume floor then up-stairs.
Next you have to concider time slot. Jan/Feb must be in a warm city.
Last March is too late for vendors to prepare for orders and the season.
So theres your 3 headed dragon, and its not as easy as people think to solve. You wont please Everyone. Its like a trick question. Get my drift.


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