Vegas a bust?

[Jolly Pumpkin]

Whenever you separate Halloween and Haunts, one is bound to fail. And it's Halloween this time. This really does make the haunt industry look bad since both Halloween and Haunts are associated with each other. Even though the haunt industry has its own show, it doesn't matter. In my eyes this is a bad omen for both industries and I hope the haunt show doesn't have the same fate.

If you think the failure of these Halloween and Costume shows isn't going to effect the haunt industry think again. Once again I think the haunt show will be successful, but I don't think it's going to be half the success it was when it was in Rosemont and Vegas next to the Halloween, costume and party section. I hope I'm wrong. I really do. Am I the only one who thinks this is a bad sign?

[Spookyfinder]

Noah,

It's not seperating Halloween and Haunts... WE ARE HALLOWEEN!!! It's seperating the retail crap from the haunt stuff. Our hauntshow is going to be insanely awesome! We don't need the retail, big business BULLSHIT to support the season... people GO TO HAUNTS... they LOVED to be scared... and more and more, it's being called the HAUNTING SEASON instead of Halloween. I mean, we've far surpassed just one day of the year; we're viewed as an entire season... just like Christmas!

Again, we don't need the retail side... let them rot. I'd much rather have people enjoying haunts during the season! -Tyler

[graystone]

Tyler

My friend your 21? So at most if you went to TW in Chicago 2 times. I remember once in Chicago it was nice I been going for 8 or 9 years now. Now as far as the weather and I really don't think thats the problem. But would someone tell me If were in Chicago, Vegas, St. Louis, or where ever. I cant seem to recall anyone hanging outdoors in the woods or a tiki bar. Everyone hangs indoors always. So what does the weather have to do with it one damn thing. Now don't jump and say its a travel thing. Most roads are cleared and flights come and go in snow, rain, fog. Shane and its lets stand outdoors in the rain and party! Shane this time

P.S. AMEN NOAH!

[xxxdirk]

Sorry, those of you saying we do not need the halloween side have been sniffing too much spirit gum. These shows need VENDORS and lots of them to make it worth while to produce. The haunt show will have maybe 100 or so vendors in St Louis. Thats barely enough money to pay for the rental of the facility and marketing and all the other costs. The vendors need a LOT of people to buy stuff from them. The haunt show will be awesome and fun, but if anyone thinks it will be anywhere close to what Chicago was like with the two or three shows all running at once, they are on some serious drugs.

[Spookyfinder]

I've snuck in once with family... super easy to do. Hahahaha... but I'll stand by what I said... I will most likely not go to Chicago if the HAUNTSHOW goes back... Chicago SUCKS... with the exception of DreamReapers... I plan to never return. Now, I'm not going to stop my crew from going if they want... but I won't be there.

I don't support haunts... I don't support vendors... I support this INDUSTRY as one massive group! I only support what's good for this INDUSTRY, period. I could give a shit if they moved the show to Tokyo... but I wouldn't support it, it doesn't benefit the industry. Same with Chicago... yeah, you had fun... big show... nice haunts... but it's not nearly as good as what other cities could provide; so I don't support a Chicago move, period. There's no changing my mind so I'm not going to argue it anymore. -Tyler

[Jolly Pumpkin]

I agree, but it's called The International Halloween, Costume and Party Show and when most people outside of the industry hear haunted attractions they associate that with Halloween. It's always been that way and it always will be. I think it's great that the haunt industry has its own show, but when the press covers this event it will make the haunt industry look bad. They aren't going to explain that there's also a haunt show this year.

They are just going to show the small empty haunt section that is full of booths that have flyers and brochures on the tables. Most people who see that are going to think that the haunt industry is unprofessional and a small industry. I've visited enough haunts to know what casual haunt goers think of the haunt industry and the majority will always visit haunts more during October than September because it's closer to Halloween.

You can't seperate them and think it will work just fine. Why do you think hauntedhouse.com calls themselves the number one Halloween website or why do you think Knotts Berry Farm is called Halloween Haunt. People associate haunted houses with Halloween. Halloween came way before haunts and is one of the big reasons haunts are as popular as they are today. The worst night haunts have for attendance is on Halloween night because people are busy trick or treating, having Halloween parties, etc.

Halloween will always be a much larger industry no matter what and when you seperate the shows something like this is bound to happen. Halloween candy alone makes billions of dollars a year. Like I said before I think the haunt show is going to be successful, but not as successful as when the retail section was apart of it.

[Spookyfinder]

I don't think you understood me...

WE ARE HALLOWEEN!!! What I'm saying is that there needs to be a seperation of RETAIL and HAUNTS... Knott's Berry Farm, they don't attend retail shows... they attend HAUNTSHOWS! Well, they attend IAAPA for that matter, but who's getting technical!

Leave the retail show to retailers... Wal-mart, Halloween Express, FindCostumes.com, etc. etc. etc... we don't need that shit and let it rot! We have our own, full blown AWESOME show that's going to be cool as hell!

We are Halloween! Halloween is about getting scared and having fun... not buying candy and blues clues costumes!

And don't even bring up how they're the bigger side of the industry and make more money. Again, think about this... who is the demographic of the retail side? Haunt side?

It's like comparing Cedar Point to Disneyworld... two different industries, two different goals... different audiences! We can examine this for days but it all comes down to us... THE HAUNTS!!! -Tyler

[graystone]

Amen Ron

Hopefully we will see the return of Halloween and Haunt! I am 1000000% for it. Tyler my friend if you dont go just because its in Chicago then all I can say is. You will be the only one that want go. Well maybe along with Larry I seem to remember him saying he want go either. I did not want St. Louis but after thinking about it I am going and am being supportive although I have my opinions I mean Drama about it. Shane and its yes Tyler just like me you will go! Shane this time.

[Jolly Pumpkin]

The last time I checked Halloween was about costumes and candy. It's not just about being scared and having fun. That's part of it. It's about tradition, becoming someone else for one night and enjoying candy that brings back memories of when the world was safer and it was fun being a kid. Halloween is about the seasons changing.

Halloween would do just fine without haunted houses. Yes, it wouldn't be as enjoyable and profitable, but it would survive. But the haunt industry wouldn't be in as good of shape without Halloween. You can have two separate shows for retail and the haunt industry, but when they aren't together they aren't as successful. There are haunts out there that buy stuff from the retail side and haunt side.

[mindtumor]

So basically Tyler you are saying if you don't get your way and the hauntshow doesn't go to a Tyler approved city then you are going to throw a temper tantrum and stay home? Who cares? I didn't like it when they moved the show to Vegas but I went. If it moves to Orlando, which I don't want, I will still go. Do you want to know why? Because I don't cry like a baby when I don't get my way. I don't talk out of both sides of my mouth and scream "We need to support our vendors, we need to do what is best for them!!" like some people around here and then threaten to not attned any show if I don't get my way.

Also Tyler do you realize you are on here telling lots of people that have actually owned and operated haunts for years what is best for them and the industry? You haven't ever ran your own haunt and only this year do you claim to own one and it doesn't even sound like it is your haunt, it sounds like some older guy plopped down a million dollars and bought one.

When Larry or Ben or Shane or anyone else that has owned and operated for years speaks up about issues like the show it is different then when you rehash what they have already said.

Also think about this if say someone like Larry, Ben, Shane(for example not specifically) says "We need OUR OWN SHOW! Lets make it happen and get our vendors cheap pricing on booths because that is what we need, LET'S DO IT PEOPLE!!!" and then he/she finds out it is going to be in Pittsburg or something and then he/she says "Well I am not going because it is in Pittsburg and it is cold and there is nothing to do" would you think he actually has the industries best interests at heart or would you think he/she is pouding because it is somewhere he/she doesn't want to go? (None of them said this it is just an example) To me that person would lose all credibility.

This isn't an attack on you or an insult to you. I realize you think you know everything about this industry but you don't. Getting ready to run an attraction and then actually doing it are real eye openers. I thought I had it all figured out before I opened the first time, I had taken business classes, I had run a hayride for 3 years, I had been on this board, I had read books, I had talked to other owners, and I had a passion for it. I worked really HARD. Then I opened and have ran for a couple of years and today typing this I realize I only know about 10% of what I need to know. I view things differently from only after 2 years as well, I can't imagine what my thoughts are going to be like after 5, 10, or 15 years. Most of our problems are capital problems, so if you actually have a million dollar backing you might have a leg up there.

I say we all see how this St. Louis show is going to go, I think it will do well, and then learn from it. Use the experience to continue to grow this show and have it be the best for the industry no matter where it is.

As far as Vegas and Houston in my opinion(which doesn' t mean much) those shows probably suffered simply because it is two different shows on the heels of one another. I highly doubt those shows are suffering because a bunch of haunted houses aren't there. But who knows.

[Spookyfinder]

Jared...

I'm not saying my company won't go... I just won't go as a buyer! Also, treating and talking to someone like a child and throwing out the insults only makes yourself look pathetic. I can hold my own and I've been WORKING in this industry for close to 5 years now, 3 years on a DECISION making level. I know what I'm doing and I take it very seriously...

As for my business... you don't know anything about it. 50% of the company is mine... I've put a few hundred thousand into, and yes, I worked for it. I don't have to explain myself to you or this industry... nor do I expect anyone to just "take my word for it". Yes, I'm a young guy... but trust me, I know ALOT more than you think and will be doing a much
better show that what's expected. (yes, in my first year of ownership)...

I don't have to "pay my dues"... I've been busting my ass in this industry for a long time... and yes, I know what it's like to run a haunt... a nightmare! But I love it; that's why we all still do it.

I'm not crying, whining and throwing a fit about a hauntshow move to Chicago... I just really don't think it's the best move for the industry. It's my own opinion... so f*ck off if you don't agree! Me, I'd LOVE to see it in Orlando, Atlanta, Nashville, Birmingham, etc. etc...

NO, I don't know everything about this industry... no one does. Not Ben... not Shane... not Larry... and no, not you. This industry is too vast that no one will EVER know everything... still though, if you only know 10% after years of owning a haunt, then I don't know what to say. I'd say that about 27% of this board know at least 60% of what they need for this industry.

So, I'm leaving this thread... it's not worth my time nor the arguement; and I'll say it again... if the HAUNTSHOW moves back to CHICAGO (and it's still winter) I will NOT attend the show as a BUYER! Period. You want to talk more about.. call me or send me an email or pm. -Tyler

[spookologist]

First of all, after reading the posts on this topic it seems like a very healthy debate, not a name calling one....congrats.

With that said. here is my opinion for what its worth.

If the retail, Halloween, party and the haunt industries could all work together, I think that would be great. I really don't think that will happen again.

I totally believe the haunt industry could take over and stand on its own, big-time. As I said before, I would love to see The Haunt Show, MHC, HauntCon and some of the others join together as one big Haunt Show in March. I think the guys from all the haunt shows and a 3rd party, Transworld (or whoever) should get together and work things out, but this show needs to be early. I suggested awhile ago that if one of these shows were to step up they would have become the Haunt show. They all do such a great job on their own, imagine if they were all together. The haunt vendors would spend money improving their product lines rather than traveling to all these different shows. Its a win-win for everybody involved. If this were to happen I don't care where it is located, Chicago in March wouldn't be as bad as January but it wouldn't be my top choice.

Who knows, since the retailers are having such a hard time maybe they'll want to work with us haunters for a change. Besides, unless you have a retail store, most of the stuff at the retail show is Walmart, Spener Gifts crap and why would you have that in your shows anyway.

The Haunt Industry- we're saving Halloween. It has a nice ring to it.

Wayne
www.trailofterror.com
http://gallery.trailofterror.com

[The Doctor]

All this retai...haunt stuff is fairly comical...since I would say almost every professional haunt has a gift shop in it. I mean last time I checked no one was selling animatronics in their haunts they were selling retail merchandise. Two three four shows all doing the same thing is bad. A few shows with different feels and purposes is good. I have not been going to many Transworlds, but loved Chicago not because it was Chicago but because I could walk and see so much stuff centered around Halloween. I mean when my wife gets me out to the Mall I don't just go to the Game store, I visit a few stores with no intention of purchasing but then again sometimes I see that "item" I just have to have.

A big all encompassing show that treats both Haunts and Retail with Equal respect is a good thing for both. It gives the haunter a chance to find a good price on some retail merchandise that fits their gift shop, or maybe make a contact that can make those T-shirts you been wanting to sell for a price you can afford. The actor finds just the costume they were looking for, or the retail store finds a simple prosthetic that they can sell in their shop. Why does it have to be us against them? I think a bigger show that offers more is never a bad thing as long as everyone's needs are met. Exclusion rarely produces the best outcome...

[mindtumor]

What insults Tyler? I pointed out exactly what you said about what you are going to do if you don't get your way and then gave my opinion on what that sounds like. I told you right in the post I wasn't trying to insult or attack you. I had two points in that post one was people talking out of both sides of their mouth, which has happened on this subject for the last TWO years, and the other point was how much you learn and how your opinions start to change after owning your haunt no matter what the size of it is. Obviously, you feel much different about what you read then what the intent was. What I was doing is called debating YOUR arguments. You gave your opinions on the show based on what? Whether you think it is an insult or not your opinions on this industry and what you believe you need to grow your show are going to be a constantly changing and growing thing as operate your show, not someone elses. If you can't handle having your comments being debated and discussed then don't post them. Surly, you don't think you can say whatever and it won't be questioned. Do you not question what other people say sometimes? Do you just take for granted that whatever someone on here says is good sound advice coming from a person that has experienced exactly what they are trying to tell you what to do? Or do you just expect me to say "Whatever person xyz says must be what you are suppose to do".

As far as you saying me insulting you shows what type of person I am, keep this in mind I didn't insult you and I didn't call you names and I certainly didn't throw some profanity your way like you did me. What I did do was question the statements you made about you seeming to know what is best for everyone and what you were going to do if things didn't go the way you think they should go. I even went as far as to say I didn't have enough experience and knowledge to say what is the best for the industry. And I certainly won't be insulted when someone says I haven't be around long enough to be telling people constantly what they should and shouldn't do and what is best for them and the industry. I will say "Yeah your right, I don't".

And if you feel insulted by this rebuttal I am MORE THAN WILLING to clarify my statements to you or anyone else.

[swampboy]

Vegas

For what it is worth, I am here at the show right now in Vegas. If you want an opinion then find me at TW and I'll tell you about it.

Here are a couple points of info:

1) The 2010 HCP Show is at the Rosemont in Chicago - its publicized and you can reserve your booth today Feb 26 to Mar 1. There is no info about it being anything other than HCP again - so none of the info suggest haunts will be with it next year. (Just reporting the fact and not suggesting it couldn't change or that this is the best way to do it.)

2) Noah is correct, the "Haunt Pavillion" at HCP 2009 is just tables with business cards/brochures on them. No one I spoke to at the show suggested anything negative about the Haunt business but rather focused on TW for splitting the shows.

I've talked to over half the vendors about the show and their thoughts but don't really want to re-hash on a forum since it is just people's opinions but many are very concerned about the economy and that seemed to be more on their mind than this show or that show.