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[Scaren Karen]

Michael,

Why not tell people about the hot water you got in with many people on the Halloween L list and I am sure many others by obtaining peoples #'s and having some sort of automated service call them about your show. You never once apologized to those people or the list for that intrusion or for your error in judgement. As I recall there were several individuals looking into taking legal action against you. But I guess in Michael and Robert's world the rules of proper conduct don't apply.

Mark my words more vendors mean less dollars for the vendors that vend at your show. Are you going to increase attendance 4 times to support the 100 plus booths you have sold, traded or given away? You are going to have a lot of vendors sitting around staring at each other because you are doing your show EASTER weekend! I'm sure there will be some that will be able to break away from family obligations and come to your show and others that live close enough that attending won't mean a huge cash outlay, but there will be a lot of people not able to attend your show or any other show because of the economic down turn.

Timeline correction, wasn't last year the first year for the Eastern Haunters Convention, not 2007. Then you announced that you were taking a year off to develop your "National" show, but of course you didn't tell the whole truth... Because surprise surprise you are doing a another show this year and calling it a "National" convention.

I don't like you Michael or Robert because you are not HONEST with people, heck you're not even honest with yourselves.

Scaren Karen

[Scary Harry]

keep your chin up

I haven't been to your show before but plan on coming this year, I 'm really looking foward to the bates tour. I know the Valley Forge Convention Center l and can say it is very impressive. I,m really glad to see an event here in the northeast, I'm in Albany NY which is quite a distance, but close enough to bring the employees without breaking the bank. Keep up the hard work guys, rome wasn't built in a day.

[StackerSteve]

I'm thrilled to death to get to attend something like this and it's close to me. I will be there to take advantage of the products and classes offered.

[wigley F/X]

WoW! Not a pretty sight to see for a member that doesn't get on here much, but is trying to make an effort to do so, but I thought I would put my two cents in on this issue. I was at the con last year. I traveled all the way from Chattanooga Tn. and even gave up most of my free time as a guest to work for Rob because he is a nice guy and needed the help and I am not sure he even sleep the whole time he was there because he was way to busy making sure that his guests and venders were happy and well feed. I have never eaten that good at a con in my life. Yea Rob. Yes it’s Darla; anyway, there heart is in the right place and I believe in them. As a director for another con, I have seen and made many mistakes and did everything I could to make sure that it was not made the next year. Running a con is hard work and does basically consume your whole life. Trust me I just finished working one as a director for the first time. Everyone deserves a chance to succeed and to try to make a dream a reality. Bad feelings and ugly words really doesn’t do anyone any good. I am not taking sides but there is always room for another show. The venders are adults and can make up there minds. If they choose to take the risk if that is what they choose. It’s not like there going into it blind. They have all done enough shows to know, if it is a bad call for them or not. As far as stress on the vender because there are too many show. Well, then the venders need a plan on which show they will do and which ones they don’t. I can’t afford to go to all the cons, so I chose which ones will benefit me. Weather they do bad or good is up to them. If I was afraid that someone made a prop better then me and I was face to face with them and I backed out of selling at the same con with them then as a business person I am shooting myself in the foot. The goal for the like venders is to convince the buyer that there product is so much better then the competitor. I am in the hopes that I will be able to become a vender soon and do my first gig at EHC. So, I hope that at least from this poster you can see that yes, there is two sides to every story, but ill will doesn’t do either party any good. Yes, there are valid points and grips but there is also room to learn and improve. The haunt families have always seemed to be a breed all there own and a breed I am proud to be a part of. They seem to stick together and over come the things that plague other regular cons. Don’t make me change my mind.

[drfrightner]

I think the show they are working on has some real potential because the Philly area is like the center of the haunted universe on the east coast. There are more high end haunts up that way than anywhere else in the country. I like Mike, I think he's one swell guy!

My only advice to this fledgling show or any other is marketing is the key... if you or any show sells vendors on coming to the show it dosn't matter how much you sell your booths for what matters is the cost to exhibit. You can sell your booths or fifty cents, but the real cost in a show is in shipping products there, hotels, time away from the shop, and all the travel expenses.

We don't need more vendor shows however the shows that offer seminars, tours, good education those are designed for the haunter and if you focus on that aspect you can give a better overall experience.

If you offer vendors booths the key is to bring in QUALIFIED buyers not just any buyer but QUALIFIED buyers... I've said this to MHC, Hauntcon and the rest. If you can't bring in check books, then these shows don't make sense for the vendor because of the cost to attend.

To bring in QUALIFIED BUYERS costs money... look at Transworld they buy lists, they do mass email afte mass email, they do mailings, they buy ads in every magazine in the amusement industry, and the one thing you don't see them do is get on message boards to build awareness like every other show.

To build a successful show takes money, marketing dollars to find those qualified buyers. I'm sorry but zombie walks, hearse rallies, garage sales, make up wars, just don't appeal to the mass majority of haunt OWNERS, because sadly the majority of for profit haunts are doing this for profit, or are building their haunts in the summer, or whatever else.

Haunt owners like myself first and foremost care about see a lot of new products, we want to spend money, get new idea's not attend a costume ball. All of those things have their place, and yes they are all fun but the appeal more to the haunter who simply enjoys Halloween.

When I was a kid I loved dressing up, I trick or treated until I was freakin 17 years old for God sakes... but now I have two kids, a family, a working business, to much to do and to little time. I would love to go around to all these places, but to be honest I don't like attending ANY tradeshow or convention. They are expensive and a lot of work and take you away from your family and your business.

Most people who are in the business treat these events as something they must attend to advance their business not for fun, not for pleasure, not because they want to but because they know they have to!

People who love to dress up and do a zombie walk they love doing it, they enjoy doing it, they look forward to doing it, I just think most of the haunt owners do not. There is a line of who is who and what is what and to often I think people are mixing those people together and there lies the problem.

I think MHC, Hauntcon, to this new show Mike is working on are very very very valuable to many people, but at what point is to much of the same thing. Vendors can't advertise in 10 magazines, they just don't have the money, so just because you start one does't mean it will be successful.

It won't! Not enough money to go around.

Here is my point...

Just because you have a convention, just because you say you will invite vendors doesn't mean they wil come, and doesn't mean they will make money, and doesn't mean they will ever come back if you do NOT BRING IN QUALIFIED BUYERS TO BUY THEIR PRODUCTS!

PERIOD!

Who are you for? What are you about? Bottom line if you add vendors to the mix you better be prepared to bring in those serious buyers otherwise you are left with a lot of bitter vendors. I'm sorry but the guys who want to see the hearse rallies, go to the costume balls, do the zombie walks just have no interest in a $15000.00 Attacking T-Rex from Scarefactory.

Pick who you are and what you want to achieve and focus on it and be the best in that area and forget the rest.

With all that being said I do think that this show has the most potential for success just because of its location but you again must focus on one thing or the other...

Larry

[Jim Warfield]

Options Exist.

If not enough qualified buyers show up, then have a Transworld-type Dark Zone but charge admission to it, then the mere enthusiasts can help defray their expenses!
This would seek to take advantage of the Hearse-Rally, Zombie-Walk, Make-up Wars people who are enthusiastic about $15,000 props, they just can't pay that much for them..unless they find a fat wallet in the parking lot...

[Jolly Pumpkin]

Larry you don't make any sense. You're talking about how all these conventions are having social events such as makeup wars, hearse rallies etc and that haunts aren't interested in this if they are out to make money. If this is the case why are there like 4 different tours for The Darkness and a Columbia tour which is like 2 hours or more from the convention center. There's also a creative visions tour and IAHA Awards Banquet.

I would think those events would be a lot more distracting since haunts are having to travel away from the convention center with the exception of the awards banquet. Transworld is also having seminars and workshops which is very similar to what these other conventions are doing. If you're not wanting to have social events then Transworld needs to get rid of them all together and focus more on the show.

The difference between Transworld and these other conventions is that their social events are usually at the convention center at the smaller shows which is real convenient. The people who are buyers won't be distracted by this stuff anyway if they are at the convention to make purchases. Crap Larry you even have a booth at Transworld advertising The Darkness Tour which has nothing to do with furthing people's businesses. How can you judge these shows when you've never been to any of them that you are judging?

I'm sure this post will be deleted because if we don't all agree on something it must be wrong. I do agree that there are way way way too many conventions out there and I'm sure it's getting harder and harder for vendors to afford and choose which show they really need to attend. Because at the end of the day all of the haunt conventions are pretty much the same. Having a fun and interesting show makes others who aren't involved in the haunt industry want to become involved and start their own haunt. This ultimately makes the industry larger and more profitable for vendors.

So just because someone at the convention isn't a buyer doesn't mean they won't be in the near future. At MHC and similar conventions not everyone there is going to be a buyer, but there are people there that may possibly be people looking to get involved in the haunt industry, become a sponsor of a haunt, start a series or show on the haunt industry, etc. You never know and you have to keep people interested in your show with other things besides the tradeshow floor.

[Gore Galore]

It is interesting how this has turned into such a controversial thread.

I attended the NHC last year.
I met some haunt owners and even made a nice sale eventhough we didn't exhibit. A special thankyou goes out to www.tormentwelve.com for that order.

But what I will say about the NHC is that it will be a good breeding ground for new events and vendors.
The seminars were focused on the new and upcoming haunt owner with lots of how tos etc.
The seminars made me feel like we were back in the early days with speakers I have known for years and who used to always give seminars at Transworld from Ricky Dick, John Denley, John Burton, and some new great ones like Tattoo and more. So the speakers were the best of the best.

Everyone felt welcome and felt at home at this event eventhough it felt cramped. But that problem has been solved. It also felt very organized and under control.

I know there are too many events to choose from, but what can you do?
If the events are not supported, they will fail.
And that is up to the organizers to find out ways to keep that from happening.
It is all about the design of the event to meet the needs of the buyers and vendors at the same time. You can't bring in too many vendors or else you won't be able to bring in enough buyers to make it a successful show for the vendors and then they won't come back as other posts touched on.
So, you have to provide tons of activities and enough vendors to entice the buyers to attend and place orders.

It is all about balance.

And it really isn't fair to compare to Transworld unless you can get almost 300 exhibitors, over 3000 buyers at the show and provide QUALIFIED buyers. Which Transworld has always done for us. Nor to compare to any other event.
Every event has different things that define them and have different pros and cons about them.
I have been to all the events and find good and bad at all of them.

You just have to decide which ones serve your needs best both as a buyer or a vendor.

I enjoy spending time at all the events but I will admit almost 85% of our sales come directly or indirectly from the Transworld show. No other show even compares.
But again, that doesn't mean I wouldn't attend. I attend to spend time with old friends and meet new ones. It is so much easier to spend time and talk with haunters at MHC, HauntCon, and NHC than it ever has been at Transworld.

And as a haunter, just one good idea makes it worth it. I know for a fact you get alot more than just one idea at each event.

SO, do what works for you, and hopefully we will see each other at some of these events.

[Darkangel]

Michael and Robert, I'm not trying to sling mud as I know what it's like to try to get going and it takes time, trust me I know. But sooner or later you have to jump in get your feet wet! You'll learn more in the first season after opening then you would sitting out 10 years stickpiling things talking about and not doing it. Take the jump, if you are serious you might want to skip doing conventions and do a haunt so you can actually be a haunter, not a haunt employee, helper, or enthusiast.

Also, I was merely stating what I thought of the show last year, as it may help someone see through all the promotional and marketsing stuff clearer. I know you guys work hard at it, it shows....


Darkangel

[drfrightner]

Noah,

I have been going to IAAPA and Transworld since 1994. When I was like 22 or 23 years old yes that long... there was no haunt tours, there was no tours of anything, no haunted houses opened, there was barely even seminars. Transworld just had a little room where haunters could get together. If you want to know the honest truth it was a version of MHC, I think it was called the Ohio Haunters Gathering or something along those lines that really started the whole 'haunt tours'.

The point here is the shows had more people back them coming to tradeshows because there was more business owners back then, there wasn't an internet to help you find products without tradeshows.

Here is the funny thing there are fewer people than ever attending tradeshows but there are more than ever. What happened was big companies bought out smaller ones like in the amusement park industry most of the attractions where small ma and pa but then Six Flags went around buying them all out for example. Instead of 28 buyers you now have 1 buyer. In the Halloween retail industry everything was ma and pa then came Target, Walmart, Party City and the finishing blow was Halloween Express and Spirits. Back then you probably had hundreds of buyers and now you have 1/4th if that.

Later on Dreamreapers started to open at Transworld but a big deal wasn't made out of it, it wasn't part of Transworlds agenda, promotion nothing. Then Hauntcon came along and put all the marketing into the haunts that would open, as to use those haunts to get people to his show. Originally Hauntcon was my idea, and I promoted this concept opening to IAHA while I was a member. My idea was that if we as an industry started a show we should move around city to city each year so we could see all the haunts in a region. This was back when Transworld tried to boot out all the haunt owners. I pushed this idea until I was blue in the face, and to be honest we should have done it and could have done it.

A couple years later Leonard does Hauntcon, but my problem with all these shows are that to much is put into things that don't matter to a business man, and turns the show into more of a FAN FEST type of things and less of a tradeshow. Hauntcon is more of a FAN FEST or FUN FEST show than a tradeshow, its a convention not a tradeshow.

Noah, let me be clear, I am not saying people don't want these things, because clearly they do, but if you want to be a TRADESHOW rather than a CONVENTION the first and most important thing is the VENDORS, NEW PRODUCTS, bringing in QUALIFIED BUYERS for the vendors not haunt tours, not monster balls, not hearse rallies... all things you would typically see at a horror show or something.

When you have to many of the fun things then you water down the act of buying products and services and the vendors do not do as well and can't afford to make the big investments.

Transworld yes they have haunt tours this year but still its not the main reason people are coming, it may be the main reason they attend Hauntcon but not Transworld. You have to seperate a tradeshow and a convention and a tradeshow puts most of the stock into the tradeshow floor and attracting qualified buyers not just anyone who wants to walk through the door.

Totally difference!

Larry

[wigley F/X]

So perhaps this should move over to another thread, but I can't help but ask questions about everyone’s comments and opinions. I have been a spectator for most of my life in the haunt industry, worked in the special effects bis. For awhile and even been an actor and builder for haunts and now that I have chosen to take to role of a vender. It makes me want to learn as much as I can from the people that have already been there. What is a qualified buyer and how do you get them to an event? The EHC seem to be a great place to make connections and I did, but did it do me any good as an up and coming vender? I am not sure. I do know as customer I will go look at my new friends stuff and consider there stuff before I will go to a random booth and look at there stuff. Does that make since. Now I may not buy from them, but at least I took the time too look at there stuff for a potential buy, because I had made the connection the day before at the Monster Ball. I guess what I am saying is coming from an area where there are 4 cons that contain almost the same guests and programming and venders with in 5 months of each other. I don't understand the argument for a new con coming on the scene. I think I will go start a new thread in an appropriate area or find one that is already going. I do want to learn more from the folks that know more then I do.

[Scaren Karen]

Just for the record I'm not anti con, show, convention, or gathering... I go to no less than five haunt events each year. My point is that if you are going to sell booths to vendors, then you have responsibility to get buyers to the event. Not just any buyers but buyers that can buy the kind of stuff those vendors are offering. Most anyone at a show can pony up $10 for a CD, but only a select few are qualified or have the cash to afford an animatronic costing a thousand dollars or more.

I use to run a local hands on haunted workshop for 10 years. It was well received and well attended for being a local event. I always worked in an off season haunt tour as an evening event for attendees too. Haunters loved that! I never had a vendor floor, or sold my event as being anything other than what it was. I remember when Ghost Ride approached me about wanting to come to my workshop several years ago. I was shocked to say the least, but did have a candid conversation with Michael Challie explaining that he would not be encountering 100's of attendees, but a much smaller group of 50 - 65. He made the decision to come with his eyes wide open. He made sales and was able to deliver product to local haunt owners and was happy

All I'm asking for here is, HONESTY from the NHC organizers... Plain and simple. My real bitch here with Robert and Michael is that they seem more concerned with filling booths and not filling their attendee list with buyers for those vendors.

I don't like the way that Robert is selling these booths to these people, making it seem that if they miss their show they will be missing a lot of sales. I hope I am wrong for the sake of the vendors and that everyone walks away with as many orders as they can fill, but I also am a realist... and I don't see that happening, because the pool of people that have money to spend will be doing their spending in St. Louis, if they are spending at all.

I have no doubt that Michael and Robert worked really hard on their event last year and went out of their way to make sure people were comfortable and well fed. I know I did when I did my workshops, I know Barry, Kathy, Neena, and Kelly from MHC do, same for Leonard & Jeanne at Hauntcon, and Kkrazy Karen & Brian Taylor at Great Lakes Fright Fest do as well. That's called positive public relations. But if these vendors that have signed on to exhibit at NHC, who the least of their costs is the cost of a booth don't have buyers with money at the show to buy their wares. You are going to have a bunch of unhappy vendors that rightfully feel betrayed by the organizers not being HONEST with them.

The cost of exhibiting at a show is so much more than your booth... There is travel, lodging, food, shipping, printing, research and development, electricity, air, lighting, carpet, chairs, tables, shirts, helpers and their expenses, insurance, and the list goes on and on.

I commend individuals that put on events for haunters, but I don't care for individuals that give their event a name that's misleading, and not representative of what they truly are, and do so to the public and the haunt comminity at large.

Scaren Karen

[wigley F/X]

I totally see your point. I just hate ill will. It's hard coming into the industry thinking you feel like you need to take a side. I like everyone and I value everyone's thoughts. I guess in the end I will have to make up my own mind on what to do with my alliances. You sound as if you know a bit about the ends and out of the industry and that is what I'm here for. It just happens that I came in at totaly the wrong time to truley understand why one of my friends was getting blasted. No harm no foul just trying to understand.

[Xanthar]

bringing in people...

Dear Karen,

You wrote this:

"All I'm asking for here is, HONESTY from the NHC organizers... Plain and simple. My real bitch here with Robert and Michael is that they seem more concerned with filling booths and not filling their attendee list with buyers for those vendors. "

- First, you have no idea all the plans and things in place for bringing in qualified buyers to the show and attendees to the show. Now, will the show floor be super packed with people....uh...no...I'll be the first one to tell you that (and I always tell vendors that when they call, especially the ones who do large items).

- However, we already have some huge plans in place for 2010 for example and we did (and are doing as much as we humanly can for this year). Will there be as many buyers are Transworld....OMG no......and there isnt' a person in the world who thinks otherwise.

But, what we DO have is a lot of buyers from local haunts (and there are a TON) plus, we have a very lot of home haunters with very large budgets. I have done a handful of websites for home haunters (yard haunters) in this area and you would be amazed at the money and things they buy. Many of them had Unit70 level props and even full sized Gore Galore costumes! These are thousands of dollars of items for a halloween party or yard haunter!

Thus, to summarize, we are making a HUGE concerned effort to bring in qualified buyers and patrons on the show floor. Some of the things we are doing will help with this year, and other things will take effect in 2010 and 2011 which will be significant.

Remember, I am a halloween vendor myself, and I have done other tradeshows...I know how important it is to bring qualified vendors and buyers and beleive me we are working on that. I simply can't go into details because, that is between Michael, Myself and our Board of Directors and consultants.


Also, you also said:

"I don't like the way that Robert is selling these booths to these people, making it seem that if they miss their show they will be missing a lot of sales."

- Um....first, how do 'you know' how I am selling these booths....and secondly, I'm not telling anyone they will miss a lot of sales. Listen to what Larry says....Transworld has the most buyers (no one is arguing with that).

My point is very very clear.

#1) We are a NEW EMERGING Market
#2) We are the LOWEST cost convention by far
#3) Vendors have the chance to get into the Ground floor of this convention
#4) Since this is an emerging market, there is a huge chance for vendors to be the SOLE SOURCE of certain products....and not have much competition.

You talk about development costs, hotels and everything else...but all the conventions have that. Plus, if these vendors coming already do other shows, they already built their development costs into their budgets.

By adding a 2nd show (such as ours), they split the development cost between the two shows.

Thus, again, Michael and myself are out to make a great show both for the people who attend, and for the vendors. We are MORE than clear that qualified buyers really help make the show and we have been working on that steadily for the entire year. Will every single vendor have a great show? No, probably not possible, but is there the potential to have a great show for vendors...absolutely, and it might also help them get into great new markets never seen before.

Remember, Kevin from Gore Galore was not even a VENDOR at our show and got a large order by simply walking around.......there are buyers and they are in need of product.

Sincerely,

Robert Kocher
National Haunters Convention

[Pregreen]

I am one of those home haunters in the Philly market that attended the show and tour last year and had a blast. This show is perfect for people like me that have a large budget but would feel like a fish out of water at Transworld. The seminars were informative, the people were wonderful and I thought I had died and gone to heaven when I saw the Creepy Collections booth. The convention opened up a whole new world for me.... and I for one can't wait to hit the vendors this year!